Matt Forney
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Kill Yr Manosphere Idols

idols

This post stands a good chance of wiping out my readership. I don’t care. I’ve turned my guns on my own readers so often over the years I’m shocked that I have any left.

The manoblogs are all a-twitter with righteous outrage. Mark Minter is a fraud! A liar! A hypocrite! How could a guy who railed against marriage, called it an institution for “pussies,” go back on his words? With a single mother no doubt? Why did he lie about the fact that he’s a penniless bum who’s been living with his sister for the past few years?

Why? Why? WHY?

You’ll notice that I haven’t joined in the ritual witch-burning, and that’s because I didn’t care for Minter to begin with. I have nothing against him, but I just clicked past when guys like Roosh started boosting the angry comments he left on manosphere blogs. Part of my problem with the Cult of Mark Minter was that his central thesis—the idea that marriage is a bum deal for men—is so old that it has an AARP membership card. This shit’s been done before. I’ll bet not a single one of Minter’s fanboys know who Pook or Bonecrker or zed or Rob Fedders or any of the countless men who’ve written about this stuff before are.

Nobody’s got any respect for their elders nowadays.

So ultimately, I can’t blame Mark Minter too much. He was just a pissed-off guy who found a forum to vent in. By any objective measure he made out pretty good, seeing as he’s getting married to a groupie nearly half his age. Think about that: a guy who comments on blogs is popular enough to have his own groupies. Toss in the fact that he’s a broke deadbeat and from his perspective, he’s practically won the lottery.

So who do I blame? I blame you.

You credulous cronies. You gullible dipshits. You idol-worshipping nimrods. You’re no different than the legions of Oprah-watching soccer moms who turned on James Frey after his fabrications were revealed. “But-but-but he LIED to me!!!!!1” No asshole, you lied to yourself. Frey sold a vision of life that appeals to bourgeois prigs, where rich white boys snort glue, illiterate black inmates learn to love life by reading War and Peace, and drug use always leads to the worst fate imaginable. It didn’t matter that his memoirs had gaping holes the size of GeishaKate’s vagina; people ate them up because they wanted to believe the swill Frey was selling.

Same with Mark Minter. The evidence of him being a broke basement dweller was sitting in plain view, but no one bothered to do a basic Google search before they decided to deify him. Why? Because he sold a vision of life that the manospambots found appealing, where marriage is always doomed to fail and divorce is always the woman’s fault.

Now those same cultists are crying that their self-made swami isn’t cutting the mustard anymore.

This is a big part of why I quit blogging at In Mala Fide; I was tired of being worshipped by people who thought I was something other than I was. More importantly, I realized that I was actually buying into the press, starting to believe the bullshit that was being erected around me. I’ve realized that if you’re a good enough writer, people will form all kinds of mental images of you based on their own prejudices. When people started trying to turn me into their personal game guru, emailing me for one-on-one advice, I knew that the end was near.

I never claimed to be a player, a pickup artist or anything more than a guy on the edge of nowhere, telling you what he thought about the issues of the day. Right now, my life is laughably unglamorous. I work eight hours a day at a monkey’s job. I live in an overpriced hovel outside an Ivy League university, which is deserted right now save for Russian and Chinese exchange students. I spend most of my time lifting, reading and writing. Fuck, I didn’t even bother going out this weekend; I spent Friday and Saturday night plowing through a couple of books while drinking Woodchucks.

I’m nobody’s hero, at least until I can break out of exile.

If you don’t want to get fooled again, stop being so easy to fool. Stop building shrines to every halfwit who assuages your prejudices. Start demanding verisimilitude from your favorite writers.

Oooh, big word! What does “verisimilitude” mean, you ask?

It means realism, but it’s more than that. Verisimilitude is a quality of truthfulness that unconsciously pervades everything a person does: their writing, their behavior, their very personality. It’s not a quality that can be faked, except by a clinical sociopath; you either have verisimilitude or you don’t. Fakers can put up a false front, but it will eventually slip, as it did in the case of Mark Minter.

The writers that have lasted the longest in the manosphere and have the largest readerships are the ones with the most verisimilitude. Roosh. Danger & Play. Heartiste. Naughty Nomad. Delicious Tacos. Rollo Tomassi. Virgle Kent. The list goes on. These men and more have survived this long and won so many fans because their writing oozes with honesty and frankness.

Even if you disagree with some of the things they’ve said or done, you know they’re not bullshitting you; they come from a position of experience.

Up until now, blogs that lacked this inherent honesty have tended to fall by the wayside because the manosphere has largely been populated with guys who can tell fact from fiction in their guts, if not consciously. I’m sorry to say that I’ve played a role in promoting phonies and fakes in the past, but the self-correcting nature of the system still kept the losers I gave undeserved attention to from gaining much of a foothold.

Unfortunately, 2013 is becoming the Year the Manosphere Broke.

Mark Minter’s fall will hopefully become a lesson learned for some of you: no man is worthy of being treated like a god. Before you decide to shine a spotlight on someone, ask yourself if they really deserve it. Do you like this man because his writing has truth, or do you like him because he’s telling you what you want to hear? Are you building a pantheon or an echo chamber?

Idol worship isn’t healthy, and it’s not a good look. If you act like a swooning groupie, don’t get mad when you’re treated like one.

Read Next: Kill Your Sons

  • First off…I think bloggers like you and I will keep getting more popular because we show our face and live the exact life we say we do. There is only so much bragging and posturing an intelligent man can take before he says “Prove it.”

    Second…come on, Matt. You could have linked my article about this, since we essentially said the exact same thing. Apologies if you did link it, by the way. I’m at home with only my cell phone for internet so I cannot click on all the links in your post.

    It’s nice to know I’m not the only person who never liked Minter. What do you think of Deti?

  • Ok. You did link it. Just got the pingbacks. Again, apologies. Living in the country has it’s ups and downs. One bar of roaming signal with no other internet available leads to little mistakes like the one I just made. Feel free to delete the mistaken part of my last comment. Or leave it up so I learn a lesson. Your call.

  • Jeremy

    I think the biggest group-think pitfall for the manosphere is the red pill subreddit. The moderating there is turning it into non-conversation, preachy morass. Not being a huge reddit fanatic, I don’t know if other subreddits are run the same way or if that even works for that format. I suspect it doesn’t, and will only lead to a situation where the only rule is to not argue with the moderators. Anyway, Redpillschool is literally banning anyone who dares question his interpretation of how “his” subreddit is supposed to go.

  • Jeremy:

    Not being a huge reddit fanatic, I don’t know if other subreddits are run the same way or if that even works for that format.

    Both. For years now, Reddit has been a haven for people who can’t brook any disagreement with their worldviews. The Red Pill Subreddit is regressing to the mean. To be frank, the fact that Reddit is so overwhelmingly leftist makes this kind of thing somewhat necessary—there’s a whole subreddit dedicated to trolling the Red Pill, hence the need for no-tolerance moderating—but in my opinion, any site which requires you to behave like this isn’t worth having a beachhead on.

    Dr. Illusion:

    It’s nice to know I’m not the only person who never liked Minter. What do you think of Deti?

    Same thing; no opinion of him either way, but the cult of personality surrounding him is completely unnecessary.

  • Lena S.

    Did you hear about the feminist who decided not to have an abortion? The outrage! The vitriol! Ejected from the herd for failing to toe the party line.

    The cracks in the façade of false prophets are showing.

  • PA

    ” I was tired of being worshipped by people who thought I was something other than I was.”

    Thay b/w photo of Celine you used as your avatar went a long way toward creating the Ferd Myth.

  • Jeremy:

    I’m one of the moderators on the RedPillWoman subreddit & we are absolutely besieged by trolls. Heck, most of the topics are submitted by trolls, but we leave them up because they cause good discussion.

    I couldn’t even tell you how many trolls I’ve banned, and yes, sometimes I ban people I shouldn’t. I think I banned 5 people yesterday & I also apologized to someone who was banned & shouldn’t have been.

    The only reason I stay is because I think we are actually reaching people. I do have to step away from time to time because after a while, everyone looks like a nail.

    At RPW we focus more on how to act properly in a relationship, how to not be a slut, makeup & hair & other female things, so we are quite a bit different than TRP.

  • I don’t need to tell you about my own batch of lovers-to-haters.

    A vocal minority, from what I can tell, and not a particularly useful one at that. When I banned them from youtube, the quality of the comments went way up; those who screech the loudest about this, are those with the least amount going on in their own life.

  • I’ve read Pook a couple of years ago for the first time. His stuff is deep and amazing. I haven’t heard of the other guys you mentioned so I’m going to check them out. Thanks man.

  • John McNeill

    I have to admit I’ve become a bit of a Roosh fanboy. I love the quality of his writing and his lack of uber-alpha arrogance that some manosphere writers convey. And so naturally I was inclined to cheer his condemnation of Minter on RoK, even though I didn’t really pay much attention to Minter’s comments myself. But after reading some posts and comments that challenge Roosh’s rush to judgment, I’m beginning to understand and appreciate the wisdom in this article.

    I suppose it’s natural for us to build up idols as many of us want a King Arthur to lead us against the armies of the Left. I was the same way with Ron Paul back in my libertarian days. And idol worship leads to disappointment for me every time.

  • Truth

    I wish I could show my face, but due to the work I do, and the positions I hold, I cannot mostly because I laugh at all of the various rules, and use them to my advantage. (While be properly deferential in public…) Minority owned small business regulations – yeah, on paper – but the profits go into my pocket and I’m not a minority. Off shore profits, blatantly using all of the loop-holes the politicians create for themselves – yep, and loving every second. I’m sure the IRS would be on me in a minute if I didn’t cover my tracks since doing it, and wagging it in front of their face are two different things.

    But, I don’t understand the up roar – if he’s happy with his choice, more power to him. I hope it works out – past history shows it probably won’t but that is his choice. I am north of 50, and have no intention of getting hitched, primarily because I have changed as I’ve gotten older. When I was 30 and 40 I could hit the bar and walk out with that teenager, now that I’m 50, I have to have angles – so I do shows, either on stage or elsewhere – young women come to me, and I use their predilections for my benefit. Who cares if that sweet-young-thing’s in my bed because she thinks it’s beneficial to her – not me. As long as she’s young and spreading them – that’s all I care about. Am I a father-figure? Who cares? Not me. Am I a prospective “sugar daddy” again – who cares? I really couldn’t care less as long as it brings attractive young women to my bed and I get to use them. I am using them, so I expect they are using me. I think I got the best of the deal – hopefully she does too, since she’ll come back again. But who cares???

    The only lesson I teach is to do what works for you. What I do won’t – because it’s geared toward my interests and hobbies, and you couldn’t pull it off. I can. That is the only thing you should worry about – what works for you. If it gets you what you want – great. So if Mark has found something that works for him – wonderful! The world isn’t going to change because you don’t like it – so find a way to use it that works for you. I have – which is what I do in business and private – I use what works for me to benefit me. And THAT is all that I care about – MOI… That is all you should care about too, if you want to enjoy life. You have to remember, no one else gives a flying-f**k about you.

    So enjoy life – it’s too short not to wring out every bit of joy and pleasure. If you are upset about anything, you aren’t living life to its fullest. If you don’t have a spring in your walk, and a song in your heart you need to get out more and LIVE. Women are the spice of life – you can’t live off of nothing but spice, but it flavors your experience, and no matter how much I may like salt – too much will kill you, and I gotta have wasabi with sushi, just like I need a blonde on my arm for the Opera – doesn’t matter if it’s real or dyed – as long as she’s blonde and gives good head… The women you enjoy should compliment your life – it is that simple. Some men have to buy it to enjoy it – others have to rent it – and other get it given to them for their use. The same things don’t work for us all – find out what works for you and if you’re happy with it, do it.

    But you have to worry about number-one – yourself, and if you’re worrying about someone else, you’re not doing that…

  • Thursday

    I never knew who this guy was until this week. This is the danger of making categorical statements, of being absolutely against marriage. The reality is that the divorce rate among upper middle class people, like the ones who read these blogs, is around 16%. Screening and learning game can drop that risk way down, probably to low single digits. So, the point should be that you should be very, very cautious about marriage (you, as a man, can get totally screwed by it), and only do it if you have a very good reason, like wanting kids, but the paranoia about it among the kind of people who read blogs like this is unjustified. Cover your ass, make informed choices, and do what you need to do.

    But that doesn’t sell. It requires actual thought.

    I’ll tell you what sells: simplistic sells. Giving people an ultra-clear message, even a stupid one, is the way to gain a quick following. People are lemmings looking for someone to tell them what to do. No one would have batted an eye at Minter marrying a woman 24 years younger than him, if he had simply said that you should be really really really cautious about getting married. But that wouldn’t have made him semi-famous. Live by the categorical statement, die by the categorical statement.

  • Thursday

    Sober risk assessment and management can’t compete with crazy ass rants.

  • Jeremy

    @Tempest

    I’ve visited RPW, it’s not so bad… yet. However, it’s gotten so bad on TRP that if you pay close enough attention, you can watch RPS and his moderators ban people for having wholly level-headed and civil policy discussions on threads that are nowhere to be seen on the front pages of the subreddit. I captured one of recent ones as it evolved in images. I’ll post it later. Even-keeled contributors are routinely forced to create new accounts to get around the bans.

    I tend to agree with Forney, any site that requires the kind of moderating practiced there is simply not worth it. You want conversation, not a controlled message. I’ll even go one step further, the moderating there is entirely off-the-rails. They are banning people, not for trolling, but for daring to suggest that these guys slow down and think about what they’re doing w.r.t. their moderating.

  • scatmaster

    guess I must be a neophyte as I never heard of this Minter guy up until now. Only knew of his “groupie” through CH. Surfed that site for lulz. Nothing more. I am too old for that game shit but it was a place to stop and root around. No worshiping from me, ever.

  • Thanks for the mention, Matt. I’d add yourself to the list.

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  • Slumlord

    Good post.

  • Apollo

    People used to worship you?
    ;)

    Yeah, I largely agree with this. Theres definite hypocrisy in Marks actions, and its fair enough to point that out. The level of hate thats pouring out over this is way beyond whats reasonable however. Hes an outspoken hypocrite who said some stuff and then did the opposite, which happens. Theres no reason to get so emotional, or to feel personally betrayed. It definitely shows that some in the manosphere were investing a little too heavily in the guy.

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  • Modern Drummer

    Totally agree, we in sphere need to not look at people so reverently. Eat the chicken and throw out the bones.Find what works for you and don’t form manosphere gangs. Unify on the things we agree on and not take everything so seriously.

  • I am sorry for my ignorance; apparently I haven’t heard of the blogger/or comenter above who is being burned – when IMF evaporated, my reading of the sphere decreased as well,
    So did this guy really got a huge following? And I don’t get it? So now he’s getting married? by the way with what type of a girl and at what country exactly?

  • @Matt
    “This is a big part of why I quit blogging at In Mala Fide; I was tired of being worshipped by people who thought I was something other than I was.”
    Funny – since the whole point of blogging anonymously is so that people will focus on the message instead of the person. Being Ferdinand was supposed to serve as to NOT sway people away from the MAIN message of the blog – as stated as well by the late Delusion Damage right? But how did it go? I guess it didn’t quite work that way huh?

  • The minter thing hit too close to home. Many guys admired and agreed with his ideas but also secretly were waiting to put a ring on it the first chance they got.

    That he is also being vilified for living in his mothers basement is equally as revealing.

  • Jeremy

    Minter’s hypocrisy is not unique. As has been said by others, women are the guardians of sex, and men are the guardians of commitment. Women will seek sex while deploring other women who sleep around too much. Women who spend their entire lives bashing the slut life would gladly behave in such a way if given a good opportunity. Likewise men who protest their entire lives about the injustices of marriage actually truly want commitment. Just because you are the guardian of something does not mean that you do not want your militarized bridge crossed by someone. Minter’s loud protestations about marriage being little more than a horrendous trap should have actually been a clue to anyone reading his comments. An extreme position like that cannot be forever maintained, and there is no easy step-down from such a platform. The fact that he is now engaged to Kate is actually even less surprising. Kate, while a decent commenter on manosphere blogs, has for a long time commented in such a way as to reveal her true intent. Kate wanted a man, and she got one. She was flirty with anyone who managed to get into a specific conversation with her and wasn’t an ass about it. More than once I found myself in a conversation with her, and felt a strong need to simply stop responding because it was deviating from the philosophical. I come to these blogs to think and to bounce thoughts off other men, not to deal with women in that way. I don’t fault Kate or Mark for their behavior, but I think their story is very educational. Kate was lucky, she was looking in a fairly decent place to find masculinity. Mark should have stepped down from his extremism (for that is what it is) before creating a meme of himself.

  • AAB

    – Kate, while a decent commenter on manosphere blogs, has for a long time commented in such a way as to reveal her true intent. Kate wanted a man, and she got one. –

    Other men have commented on this (inc. Simon Sheppard http://www.heretical.com), noting that women only take an interest in something in order to get a man. Whether it’s an engineering course at University or the manosphere/androsphere forums, the strategy remains the same. Basically, they’re going fishing using the manosphere as the fishing grounds!

    Always be on guard to women, no matter where you are. Whether you’re in the mens club or in the supermarket, women are always on the prowl to try and snare you, to catch you in their web and domesticate you.

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  • Jeremy

    Looked at another way, the vitriol directed at Kate should be expected, if perhaps undeserved.

    What would feminists, in a feminine-space-blog, think of a man who commented there only to sleep with women? They’d castrate him if they could.

  • idol worshipping is never a good thing as it always in the end turns out that the idol is the opposite of what you have read about them. For me if i go to someone’s site who ever that might be is because i like to read their posts and form some points of my own and that is about it. Many people are followers so to them they are looking for something or someone they can relate to. Which is why cult followers always end up dead in the end because they cannot think for themselves or form their own opinions. Its unfortunate but we have a lot of those people out there.

    Great post!

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  • Fred Flange

    First off, that guy Truth up there’s been reading my mail. Shit.

    The fixation and hysteria over Minter is, frankly, pretty much the same to how feminists vilified and abandoned Hugo Schwyzer, and Warren Farrell before him. Though it is often the case that radicals and those prone to, shall we say, strongly held positions often eat their own. Exhibit A is feminist Susan Faludi’s New Yorker obituary and history article from April about the old guard of 1960s-70s feminists who were chewed up and spat out not by anti-feminist opposition, but by fellow True Believers. I’ve gotten a lot of good stuff from Roosh and RoK, and expect I still will, but I found his and others’ primal screams about this subject eerily similar.

    I always took Mark’s vitriol with several pounds of salt, and was willing to give the guy a nod sometimes, because I’m his age and saw other men go through what he went through. So I could relate to what that looked like and felt like. Also, it is often those we consider the most macho – cops, soldiers, people who can kill at will – are the most beta-fied in their own relationships and marriages, or hope to be “saved” by a new love, then go postal when that fails too. I have seen that too, more than I care to remember. Even what his ex says about him fits the pattern – a guy who melts down when marriage 1 goes bad and can’t relate to his own kids, while the two ex’s go at each other in a death-spiral called the Rage That Feels Good. Everybody loses, especially the young’uns. That’s the part that frosts me. Sadly I’m used to seeing it lots.

    Anyway, onward and upward.

  • Jack

    uh …

    No one treated Mark Minter like a GODDDDD. Except for all the butthurt manospambots at Heartiste’s and RoK. What the hell am I babbling about? How much I like to suck dick. TMI! TMI! TMI!

    [CensorBot sez: Man, there’s a lot of faggotry in the comments these days.]

  • This is a great reminder for those who would worship guys based on one small part of their lives, while ignoring the bigger picture. It reminds me of the PUAs who idol-worship Mystery, who got tons of hot chicks and was also a bipolar mess who could never really keep a business together. For the record, mad respect to Mystery, but to want to be like him is misguided. I see that same dynamic everywhere–guy has one thing people like and want, and try to be just like him….without grasping the full implications of what “just like him” really means.

    Even though I have a lot of respect for Roosh as a writer and a thinker, I stopped following him because I realized that he seems depressed and defeated in nearly every video he makes. It’s important to take an entire life into account before deciding someone is your Hero.

    Also just read your piece on the upcoming 20/20 debacle. Hour and a half til showtime. The Manosphere is going to explode.

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