Matt Forney
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The Manosphere is Dead, and You Have Killed It


Yesterday morning, I had a realization: I don’t want to be part of the manosphere anymore.

I remember the exact moment when it happened. I was sitting in a brunch joint in downtown Buffalo, waiting for the waitress to bring me my orange juice, when I came across Danger & Play’s article on quitting the ‘sphere. Like an empty car ambling forward on drive, I slowly grew angrier, my left hand balling into a fist under the table.

Mike’s article was the catalyst for my growing revelation: the manosphere is dead.

I’ve defended the manosphere for years now because as one of its founders, I felt a certain loyalty to it. Mike’s article made me realize how I’ve sold myself out in the process. As he pointed out, almost no one came to his defense when Tucker Max and Geoffrey Miller plagiarized his blog for their watered-down ripoff site Mating Grounds. I’ll freely admit that the week prior to that, when Frost discovered that Jack from Viva La Manosphere was plagiarizing Mike’s site Fit Juice for his own juicing blog, I didn’t want to do anything initially because I didn’t want to “rock the boat” in regards to site traffic (Viva La Manosphere was one of my blog’s biggest referrers). It was a completely cowardly cop-out and I apologize for it.

But it goes deeper than this: two of the manosphere’s biggest voices are frauds.

For about 2-3 years now, Sunshine Thiry (aka Sunshine Mary) and Danny Edwards (aka Danny from 504) have been lying and creating fantasy personas solely to get attention on the Internet. Sunshine pretends to be a submissive, devoted housewife while Danny pretends to be a ladies’ man. While this is bad enough, both Sunshine and Danny have engaged in massively unethical and borderline-illegal intimidation and harassment of their “enemies” as well. And despite evidence of their chicanery sitting in plain view, the two of them continue to receive support from the manosphere.

As Nassim Taleb put it, if you see fraud and don’t shout “Fraud!”, you are a fraud. A sin of omission is still a sin. By continuing to coddle liars like Sunshine and Danny, the manosphere has shown that it no longer serves the Good. Because my first loyalty is to the truth, I’m here to expose these two charlatans and inform you of how dangerous they are.

Some of you will likely object to my doxing of Sunshine. Putting aside the fact that her personal information has already been leaked all over the Internet by “anti-fundie” forums such as Free Jinger, I’d say her private info is very relevant considering that not only is it at complete odds with the image she presents online, she’s attempted to use other peoples’ private info against them.


Sunshine Thiry: Portrait of a Desperate Housewife

Sunshine Thiry began blogging several years ago at The Woman and the Dragon; she deleted that site a year ago after purportedly being outed, but resumed writing at her current blog not long after. Her “story” is that after discovering that her husband Philip (aka Holy Hand Grenade/HHG) had cheated on her over 30 times some years ago, Sunshine “rediscovered” traditional femininity and used it to save her marriage. She claims that her husband works as a doctor earning six figures a year, that they live in an upper-middle class neighborhood in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and that they have five daughters.

All of this is a lie.

Philip Thiry is actually employed as a nurse; while he makes a respectable wage, it doesn’t qualify as “upper-middle class” even if you add in the scant income Sunshine makes as a part-time speech therapist. The Thiry family lives in a tiny house in Ypsilanti, a slummy suburb of Ann Arbor with a median household income of only $28,610 per year. To analogize, Ypsilanti is to Ann Arbor as Newark is to Manhattan. Finally, the Thirys have exactly two daughters, which explains how Sunshine can find the time to write so many blog posts despite supposedly being a busy traditional housewife. A cursory glance at her childrens’ social networking profiles confirms that the Thirys have only two daughters, meaning that Sunshine has been posting pictures of other peoples’ children on her blog trying to pass them off as hers.

But it’s not just the details of her life that Sunshine has fibbed about; her persona of being a submissive housewife is also completely false.

I’ve often wondered what kind of man would be fine with his wife posting intimate details of their relationship and raunchy sex talk on a public blog. The answer is a man who is completely dominated by said wife. Despite Sunshine’s claims, she is not attracted her husband Philip, she wears the pants in their marriage, and she is a typical bossy American woman. And as it turns out, Philip’s cheating was likely motivated by Sunshine’s constant nagging, as this comment from someone who knew them in real life shows:

I used to know SSM and I am simply amazed at the about-face that she’s done. She used to be fun and really cute, with a wicked sense of humor that would peek out every once in a while, often at the expense of herself.

She tried very hard to be a mellow hippie, but she actually was sort of bossy. Her boyfriend (now husband) was also cute and funny and fun. She quickly showed that she wore the pants in that relationship. The only thing I can figure is that he rebelled against her bossiness by cheating. Now she’s desperately trying to keep him under control through religion and gender roles, it seems. My guess is that his control is illusory.

I’ve been fascinated with the way she glosses over or rewrites history when she talks about the past. She was very cute but not thin or a runner in her younger days. She was a charming flirt, maybe a bit of a tease and if she wasn’t promiscuous, she led people to believe that she was. She also didn’t meet her husband when “they” were students. He was a free spirit, a high school graduate but had never enrolled in college (or who had dropped out) and worked minimum-wage jobs to support himself. She helped put him through college. She has two biological children, not four. She has also written that she was from an intact home. That is not the way I remember it.

Speaking of promiscuity, Sunshine was likely a slut when she was in college. If her thousand-cock stare in the picture isn’t enough for you, here’s an email I got from a friend of mine:

I suspect SSM was quite the little slut back in her college days. I recently sockpuppeted at her blog using a proxy and basically her answer to my allegations was, “I never said I engaged in bisexual activity,” but she rather conspicuously, at least to me, never unequivocally stated that she didn’t. If it weren’t true, you can bet your ass a woman would say “I never did that,” not “I never said I did that.” That’s similar to the non-apology apology, “I’m sorry you feel that way.”

But does someone become the president of an admitted party house without being “popular” and going along with the culture? And what woman would cultivate a reputation of being promiscuous if she weren’t? She certainly admitted to having “not shaved” because that was the thing at her house, and that there was lots of girl on girl action going on (with other girls and her lesbo/bi roommate; yeah, right). She also said she travelled to other universities and sorority houses; gee, do ya think she partook of some of the hedonistic delights there too? Do you think she is so worried about sluts at colleges because that was her experience and she’s afraid her daughter will do the same?

Finally, Sunshine Thiry, the special little snowflake that she is, constantly tries to deny her affiliation with the manosphere. She repeatedly insists that she is not part of the ‘sphere (claiming in an email to me that she got “co-opted into the manosphere”) and complains about her pathetic, whiny male commenters even as she writes anti-feminist posts specifically targeted at them, fills her blog with titillating sex talk, and aggressively comments on and links to manosphere blogs. Even when Sunshine supposedly closed the comments on her blog for Lent, she immediately stepped up her use of Twitter and asking manosphere bloggers questions on She also denies being a Red Pill Woman™ even as she writes in the same style and about the same subject matter as TempestTcup, Stingray, Margery etc.

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and sucks like a duck, Sunshine wants us to think it’s a goose.

But being a fraud in and of itself is not what makes Sunshine Thiry a wretched human being. It’s her intimidation of anyone who criticizes her that has earned her a special place in hell. Sunshine has repeatedly libeled her enemies in the most ridiculous ways and has even attempted to use government coercion to silence them. Her crowning achievement was when she attempted to have the children of one of her critics, Lena S., taken away by Child Protective Services:

OK, it didn’t take long to figure out who you are.

Does this strike you as normal behavior on your part? Of course I am going to immediately report you to word press, but furthermore, can you not see that this is bizarre, bizarre behavior? Your obsession with me has gone on long enough. Surely there is something going on in your life that is a bit more worthwhile than this.

I understand that you dislike me and I have understood for a long time that you are obsessed with me, but I can’t quite understand why you are so obsessed. E., I’d encourage you to speak to a priest or counselor and get some help with this. Most people find your behavior very strange. I think if you step back and consider your behavior, you will have to agree that it is rather disturbed.

In any event, I will pray for you and also for your children. It worries me that they are under your care, frankly. Recall that even when you barely knew me, you sent me one of your daughter’s private school records (IEP) with all your personal information in it. I am going to assume that unless this blog is deleted that you have had some kind of mental health crisis, and it will then be necessary for me to contact authorities to check on your children’s well-being.

May God bless you with renewed health and peace.

When Lena and Laura Grace Robins attempted to bring this to peoples’ attention, the Red Pill Women™ either ignored it or attacked them for being “catty.” Beyond the obvious heinousness of trying to use government goons to break up Lena’s family, Sunshine didn’t even identify the target properly; the Sunshine Gary blog is not run by Lena. In other words, Sunshine was threatening to destroy Lena’s life for absolutely nothing. (You can read more about Sunshine’s threat here.)

This is not all. Sunshine has a peculiar obsession with Lena and Laura, frequently attacking them and attempting to turn men such as myself against them. Several months ago, Sunshine started a rumor on Twitter that Lena’s now-defunct blog Not Equal But Different was hosting malware, a ridiculous lie. When several of her readers called Sunshine out on her mendacity, she backtracked and deleted all of her Tweets. Lena archived Sunshine’s comments on her blog and was kind enough to provide me with a copy of her post; you can read it here.

Yet in Sunshine’s warped mind, it’s Lena and Laura who are obsessed with her. In an email to me a few weeks ago (screenshot here; I’ve redacted some details for privacy reasons), she ludicrously tried to claim that Laura “spends hours each day scouring [her] site” and clicks on her site “30 or 40 times” some days. I don’t know Laura Grace Robins in real life, but I can vouch for her having read her blog(s) for years (in fact, she’s one of a handful of bloggers in this part of the Internet who’s been around longer than me); these accusations from Sunshine are baseless.

It’s obvious from her online antics that Sunshine Thiry is a narcissist or has some other kind of personality disorder. Her primary concern is lapping up attention for men as revenge for her husband’s 30 plus affairs. Yet with the exception of Lena S., Laura Grace Robins and a few others, no one has dared to publicly call her out. In fact, Sunshine has won accolades from manospherians for her advocacy of traditional femininity. Before she closed comments on her blog, she had threads going into the hundreds of comments from men praising her, begging for more details of how Holy Hand Grenade makes her get on her knees and suck his cock, and alternately whining about how they’re doomed to die alone because they’ll never find a wife like her.

Even men who should know better are taken in by Sunshine’s wiles; a friend of mine (who I will not name out of respect for him) has repeatedly been making excuses for her even though he’s had no problem with putting men on blast in the past for far lesser crimes.

It’s clear that the bulk of manospherians value their fantasies of a perfectly submissive (but low-maintenance) China Doll wife over the truth. Sunshine Thiry has consistently had a large readership despite being a mediocre writer who hasn’t said anything that men before her haven’t said better. In fact, at one point she even had more readers than me. (I can’t get exact numbers anymore because blogs are no longer indexed on Quantcast, so you’ll just have to take my word for it.) Despite all the talk of “alpha males” and “game” and “dominance,” most of the manosphere is all too happy to kiss the ass of any coquette who says all the right words. “ZOMG FINALLY A WOMAN WHO GETS IT!!!!!11” “Where can I find a wife like you?”

Try the unicorn stables, bucko.


Danny from 504: Mentally Unstable Keyboard Jockey

Despite all this, I was content to let Sunshine fade into the sunset when a few days ago, Danny from 504 attempted to blackmail me into staying silent on her (screenshot here):

a little birdie told me you were thinking about talking shit about SunShineMary.


you out out her, i out you. and i have MUCH video to support you know SHIT that is applicable to interacting with women. i never commented on the meet up for a reason.

you shit talk her, i WILL post the actual meet-up. WITH video, and tempest’s post and my VIDEO.

let it go dude. it’s not worth it. it’s bitch shit.

be well,


I laughed out loud when I first read this. Danny’s threat is emptier than his little head (and I mean little; the guy’s 5 foot 3 at most). Not only was he only with us half the time during the New Orleans meetup, he wasn’t filming anything. Moreover, I’ve never claimed to be an expert with women, so it’s not like I have some grand player reputation to ruin.

Danny basically brought a squirt gun to a gunfight.

I was going to save some of this material for my upcoming memoir, but since no one else wants to call Danny out, I’ll have to do it myself. Like Sunshine, Danny is a fraud. He claims to be a master PUA, but having seen him in action, I can confidently say he has no skills with women whatsoever. All he does is mack on everything with a pair of breasts until he stumbles across the one girl who’s horny/drunk/desperate enough to give him a pity fuck. Furthermore, while he brags about closing “Playboy models” and the like, I’ve seen nudes of his lays, which include a fat Indian stripper with a mustache and “Worm Tits,” a girl with hideously sagging and chewed-up breasts.

As one of my friends said, “Danny puts the ‘4’ in ‘504,’ and that’s being generous.”

It’s pretty obvious why Danny barely gets laid, and then only with crack whore strippers; he has the social skills of an autistic middle schooler. He enticed us all to organize a meetup in New Orleans by promising stuff that he never delivered on (he deleted all his posts about the meetup in true cowardly fashion, but he couldn’t outwit the Wayback Machine). Danny promised a balcony apartment for the parades and it didn’t happen. He originally promised to help drive us around the city but repeatedly refused, only relenting once because his mother put him up to it (and later that night he ended up sticking us with a $100 cab fare). Moreover, he refused to help us when we actually needed him. On Saturday night, when Dr. Illusion, the Mistress, BA and myself got separated from the rest of the crew in downtown New Orleans and couldn’t contact them due to cell tower overload, we called Danny at home to give us a lift (all the cabs in the city were booked).

His response? “You’re not my responsibility, fuck off and find your own ride.”

This was compounded by the fact that I’d twisted my ankle earlier in the day and could barely walk. Half the time, Dr. Illusion and BA had to help me limp around.

And despite refusing to help his actual friends (with the exception of Jeremy Sploosh, BA and myself, everyone at the Mardi Gras meetup already knew each other in real life), Danny has plenty to time to thirst on girls he’s never met. In particular, he has a fixation on Kaitlyn Sploosh, Jeremy’s woman. The night before I came to New Orleans, Danny blew Mitch and Jeremy off at 10:30 pm to go home, drunk dial Kaitlyn and shit talk Jeremy to her for 30 minutes. Stay classy.

It gets worse: Danny has stalked and threatened other bloggers. Nearly two years ago, I gave Danny my number after he name-dropped a few other bloggers that I trusted; I was eager to make real-life connections with other manospherians. Despite me explicitly telling him that I could only pick up the phone between 8-11pm Central (as I was working in the North Dakota oil fields and had to be in bed by 11), I get him dialing me at midnight, one in the morning, two in the morning and other ridiculous times. When I finally was able to answer his call, he droned on for two hours rehashing The Mystery Method barely letting me get a word in edgewise. I eventually had to forcefully cut him off so I could get back home and sleep.

I later compared notes with a few other guys and found out that Danny had done the exact same thing to them, with the double whammy of learning that he was collecting other bloggers’ personal info and putting it in a “dossier.” Yet when anyone calls Danny out on his propensity for leaking peoples’ private identities, he flips out into a rage. Here’s a quote from another of Danny’s victims:

As it turns out, if you don’t answer a phone call from Danny, he calls again and again, up to five times in a row, one after another, without leaving voice mail. He has, on multiple occasions, drunk dialed me 5x at 2AM (Pacific time) to tell me how much of a better writer he is than I am, how much he “doesn’t need to read other people’s blogs because he invents game,” or how he doesn’t “want to be in the EP but he can help if we’ll only let him.” This was enough to convince me to sever all association with him. Ignoring him largely worked, although he would periodically call 5x and send texts.

Finally, Danny is directly responsible for two of the manosphere’s best writers—Bronan the Barbarian! and a certain other individual I cannot name, though he headed up one of the most popular ‘sphere blogs in his day—being forced to quit under threat of being outed. In the latter case, Danny was responsible for that blogger being forced to quit twice, the first time through carelessly letting his real identity slip, and the second through an act so cowardly and disgusting that I can’t repeat it here, only to say that it’s something no honest man would ever do. As for Bronan, I’m friends with him in real life and Danny’s stalking has cost him thousands of dollars a year in lost income.

Klonopin addiction, PTSD and child abuse are all a bitch, apparently.

Given all this, it’s so fitting that he’s going to the mat for Sunshine Thiry. Two peas in a pod, two frauds getting each others’ backs. Hey Danny, maybe if you white knight a little harder for Sunshine, she’ll let you touch her boobies!


Entombed in the Shrine of Zeroes and Ones

As if to further elucidate my point, I got a hilariously angry response from Mark Minter in regards to my podcast last week. I’m just going to highlight the money shot:

And fucker, if you say one more fucking thing about Kate, I am gonna find you and beat your fucking ass. Kate is in the manosphere exactly for the same reasons other people are. She finds the current culture to be a fucking lie and that women are sold a line of shit just like men. Sorry if she believes that after being educated in this doctrine, then she would believe any relationship she could possibly have would be with a guy who has the same beliefs she has. If you want to call that a groupie then fine, your prerogative. Stupid, but your prerogative.

Ponder the thought of an arthritic old man threatening physical violence against someone more than half his age. I laughed so hard at this that my dormmate probably thought I was nuts. Top that, motherfucker.

I’ve gained a reputation as the guy who criticizes people who go off on the manosphere. When MattC over at The 3 Bromigos wrote a post about his disillusionment with the manosphere, I recorded a podcast offering a polite rebuttal. (Matt later complimented me for being the only one who didn’t go nuts on him, doubly so seeing as he mentioned me by name in his article.) When Dr. Illusion was threatening to quit based on the direction the ‘sphere was going in, I talked him back into writing again.

Now I’m thinking it was all a waste.

I’m not anonymous. I have a current picture of myself on my About page and social media networks. I’ve never claimed to be “alpha” or a ladies’ man. I’ve been open about my past, how I used to be a loser, and how my current writing focuses on my journey in self-improvement. I’ve never hidden any of this. Anyone who thinks I’m fronting is reading their own biases into my writing. I’ve met countless fellow writers—the Naughty Nomad, Jack Donovan, Mitch Sturges, W.F. Price, Kid Strangelove etc.—who will vouch for my authenticity.

But if you associate with trash, then people will assume you are trash.

Let’s face it: not only was Roosh right about the manosphere, he was damned courageous for denouncing it when he did, when he knew it would piss people off. It’s that kind of courage that’s enabled him to not only survive close to a decade of blogging, but make it into his full-time job. I disagree with Roosh on many things, but a man as successful as him (in making money, in picking up women, in becoming a better writer etc.) is a man whose opinions you should take seriously.

A friend of mine once referred to Danny from 504 as “the cancer of the manosphere.” That cancer has now metastasized to the vital organs. When revolting degenerates like Sunshine and Philip Thiry are held up as exemplars of traditional values, when Klonopin-popping midgets like Danny are allowed to spit fake advice, when everyone is eager to suck Tucker Max’s dick in the hope of getting a link or two back to their blogs, it’s obvious that no amount of chemo will save this doggy.

Time to drag it out behind the shed and put one between its eyes.

The manosphere today is primarily comprised of losers, weirdos and freaks. Cuckold fetishists who orbit Red Pill Women™ begging for stories of them getting fucked by their oh-so-alpha hubbies. Keyboard players who’d rather hate-masturbate to the latest Jezebel article then do something interesting with their lives. 30-year old virgins who lecture other men about “hypergamy” and “solipsism.” Plain Jane groupies who flash their panties at men in exchange for little pats on the head. And they’ll all gladly support frauds, so long as those frauds tell them what they want to hear.

The only thing we’re missing is a limp-wristed cult leader like Mike Anissimov who thinks he can establish a reactionary commune in the Rockies despite having no practical or organizational skills.

For the past couple weeks, I’ve been on a pseudo-break from the Internet. I unfollowed everyone on Twitter and Facebook and uninstalled the apps from my phone. I reduced the number of blogs in my RSS reader to just the few I have linked here. (There will be a few more that I’ll add back when my sabbatical ends in a couple weeks.) To be frank, I don’t feel like I’m missing much.

I spent this past weekend in a church in Buffalo, pounding $3 PBRs and watching St. Vincent shred her guitar. You know what I love about going to shows in that city? If you need to go to the bathroom, the people around you will remember where you were and let you back in when you return. Anywhere else, you need to commit minor acts of violence just to keep your spot. Over the weekend, I also met a French girl who was hitchhiking to California, bunked with a Chinese backpacker who was toting a full-on PC across America, and finished reading four books.

According to the manosphere, the French girl is a hypergamous slut, Annie Clark is a feminist bitch and the Chinese guy is a hopeless beta. Yet somehow, I can enjoy the richness of the human experience without feeling the need to pick nits. The world is screwed up, yet I leave my house every day looking forward to what happens next. There are people to meet, books to read, songs to record and asses to kick.

The manosphere is the intellectual equivalent of plucking turds out of a toilet bowl, then waving them in everyone’s faces screaming “LOOK AT ALL THIS SHIT! DOESN’T THIS SUCK???!!1”

Well, I’m sorry, but I’ve got better things to do then get feces stuck under my fingernails. I’m going to keep writing, but I’m turning my back on the manosphere. There are writers I will continue to read and respect, many of whom I consider my friends, but the ‘sphere as a whole is out of my life. There will no doubt be people who continue to associate me with the manosphere, but there are also people who call me a “PUA” and/or an “MRA.”

To paraphrase Jesus, the morons you will always have with you.

To the men reading this (i.e. not the whiny anti-feminist crybabies), it’s time for you to take action. You have the tools to get jacked, get laid, get paid. Past a certain point, reading blogs about those subjects is a waste. Get off your computers. Talk to some girls. Go swimming. Start a rock band. Backpack across Europe. Write a book. Do a rail of crank. Found a small business. Join a gym. Start the World.

And leave the crybabies to blubber in their basements.

In a bizarre coincidence, St. Vincent’s latest album is in part about how the Internet is altering human relationships for the worse. Watch the video. Read the lyrics. Then go out and kick some ass.

Read Next: Kill Yr Manosphere Idols

  • Congrats. I never followed the “sphere” closely, but I stumbled upon Roissy years ago and still occasionally skim his/their stuff for entertainment, although as most people would agree, it’s not nearly as good as it used to be. Maybe because he covered everything there was to be covered, and/or maybe because the original Roissy no longer writes there.

    As I see the “sphere” now, it’s full of hateful guys pretending not to be terrible with girls, and as a result, guys hindering their own happiness. It’s a virgin circle jerk. You’re better off without it.

    I’d love to see you write some more fiction. That’s what got me interested in your blog in the first place, and if you’re anything like me, the satisfaction of writing a nice piece of fiction far outweighs the satisfaction of writing non-fiction or commentary on whatever’s going on in the world. Good luck.

    P.S. Any “manospherians” reading this who fit the mold of “hateful guy pretending not to be terrible with women”, the age-old advice truly does apply: pursue your passions and self-improvement to the point where you’re completely comfortable with who you are, be that person without apology, and you will find cute girls who want to sit on it. Repeatedly.

  • Jeremy

    Sounds like the ‘sphere is dead *because* of anonymity.

  • Most interesting reading. And depressing. Good thing I’m cynical.

    I live in the same city Bronan The Barbarian use to live in – I don’t think he’s here any more, but don’t know for sure – and I loved his writing. His blog posts about local bars, happenings, so forth, were some of the best reading on the interwebz. I was wondering why he stopped.

    I think your conclusion to it all is the most important thing. Take action in the real world and do stuff. In the end that’s what it’s all about.

  • I knew the sphere was in critical condition every writer started publishing nothing but listicles, because “look how much traffic RoK gets from list posts!”

    Anyone writes a half decent article and it goes viral, every other pathetic, unoriginal, wanna be writer is going to wrote the same thing, in the same format, with slightly different words in the hopes of getting more traffic. Pathetic and sad.

    Though if Mike wants to rage and rant for hours/days about content thievery and copycats, he need look no farther than the Manosphere itself. No need to seek outside sources.

    I no longer expend any real life energy or emotion on internet bullshit. If the sphere crashes and burns, it can’t take me with it because I’m not financially invested or ego invested. Burn baby, burn.

  • dgarsys

    For what it’s worth – I understand.

    On the one hand, there are a number of MRA/”manosphere” sites/etc. that I can credit with making me realize that the things I was seeing were not just an illusion, and that I needed to take a deeper look at history than what we’d been spoon fed by the current PC beast to learn about people, “manliness” (for lack of a better term) , gender, etc. ad nauseum. Fortunately, my tastes in SF reading involved people like Jerry Pournell and David Drake – writers who very blatantly ripped off history for the structures of their stories – which got me to reading accounts of the actual Nika revolts, the Anabasis, etc…

    That gave me a starting point.

    it took less than a year before I decided that a number of these sites involved a bunch of whiners that, instead of a) recognizing the problem, and then b) going on to DO something about it, were pretty much fixated on the attention they were getting whining about it. Or acting like a bunch of flip-side leftist/anarchist “activists” full of anger and melodrama (AF4M….)

    And so my list pared down. A lot. I wanted more time reading (history, sciences, poetry, philosophy, stuff like Taleb’s books, and fiction). I wanted time to work out, to improve work, to actually get stuff DONE now that I recognized the problem.

    With the rise in awareness we’re seeing more and more snake oil salesmen, though to an extent that’s been around for a while. That said, I think we will still see a number of people like you who are more concerned with truth and life.

  • McGriff

    Sunshine Mary’s eyes are so far apart, she sorta looks like a killer whale in that way.

    Though I’m not really too morally scandalized by her (supposed) hypocrisy in her married life. It could be true. It could be relevant. But the sources for that are anonymous commenters on sniveling anti-christian blogs. Reading those forums you linked is like reading Jezebel comments.

    I do get your point in defending Lena, but in my opinion the mere threat of “contacting the authorities” is a few leagues below actually doing it. She’s been outed now a few times, apparently her kids social profiles have as well. But has she outed anyone?

    I like to think everyone knew Dannyfrom504 was a tool. One glance at the guy’s site and its obvious. Its hard to believe anyone ever viewed him as an authority but I guess maybe they did. From time to time he would toss pictures of ugly chicks up on his blog and claim they were a “hard 8” or something like that, at which point I knew he was a fucking fraud.

    And Mark Minter, please don’t beat us up. We’re all scared, buddy.

    Also: D&P has gotten a little too enthusiastic about calling out Tucker Max, he claimed Mating Grounds stole a post from him based on one common word in the title. The posts themselves were completely different. As much as he shits on guys hoping to get traffic from Tucker, its pretty transparent that he’s raising the Tucker scandal to get traffic himself. I think people are noticing a pattern that D&P is seemingly always glomming onto manosphere drama. the roosh jail thing, vivalaman, then Tucker. The guy just loves conflict.

  • theshadowedknight

    Just as a correction, she did say that he was a nurse, and she did say that she used to be a nag and changed to try and fix her exploding marriage. As far as her being low maintenance, it is very clear that she is not, after some of the posts about how she treated her husband even after converting.

    However, that is the first I have heard of her trying to attack Lena and Laura Grace. While I have not the faintest hint of who Lena is, going after family is reprehensible, and totally unacceptable. Family is the only thing that you really have, the most valuable thing anyone can have. Laura Grace I know. She has a history around here, and while I do not often read her, I have always been impressed with her when I do. I had my own disagreements and problems with SSM, and there were some things that I ignored, but I think that this is beyond what I find tolerable.

    Thank you, Matt.

    The Shadowed Knight

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  • Fred Flange

    Everyone in this corner of Da Webz is flawed or they wouldn’t be here. I even accept a level of personal dissembling from some folk in their bios or stories, I might do it too if I were them. I could see it as a teeny little extra layer of blogger disguise that might throw off the casual troll who can’t be bothered to dig deeper, or to camouflage personal details that might come back to haunt either the author or the people in the story being told if too much truth is revealed.

    Otherwise I pick pearls of wisdom from different places from different authors, as many astute readers would do. I filter heavily. This while acknowledging that on many subjects, including political, my views on things are very different from a good number of the authors, having spent a lot of time in local retail politics (municipal, county) where the real shit gets done and yes I do know better. The neoreactionaries who do that part of Roissy’s blog never got anyone elected and never will, so the screeds from them are all just so much air.

    And again, even with all the filtering, this part of the web has been a real eye- and soul-opener for me these past couple of years, for which I will always be grateful. I take what wisdom or help I can while acknowledging that some of the personal tales are somewhat augmented or contain deliberate misleading falsehoods. (I tend to skip “bang” stories for this reason, my personal mantra is “them that do, don’t talk ”. Though if a tale has a ring of honesty to it – especially a failure story – I will be more indulgent).

    I have one word of warning, spoken as an outsider who knows none of the people personally: do what thou wilt in dealing with those with whom you’ve crossed swords, but men should not make the feminist mistake. The once-revered, then-abandoned second wave feminist Ti-Grace Atkinson put it best: “Sisterhood is powerful. It destroys sisters.” Feminism has done incalculable damage to itself by mean-girl shaming and bullying of its leaders by so-called more pure-thinking ideologues that could have come straight from the high-school playbook “Queen Bees and Wanna-Be’s”. (A new wave of it is happening right now via that new p.c. shaming/bullying tactic called “intersectionality” – it was what killed Occupy Wall Street too. If I was a high school bully today “intersectionality” would be the tactic I’d use to rip my chosen victims to pieces, and no one in the school could gainsay me since they would be “abusing their privilege” by trying to “control my tone”).

    In other words: you’ve bumped heads with some folk. Put on an ice pack, walk away, and cut contact. Think like a Stalinist purge: in your mind, the commissar vanishes. (See the book of that title).

    And of course the ‘sphere isn’t the only place where head-exploding is a fine party game, you know this as a musician. Go to any club or to any store on Record Store Day and start bloviating on any music genre loudly enough, you’ll have a screaming match on your hands within two minutes tops from some ASD guy who will scream “rockism” at you for not liking Nicki Minaj or detailing (track by track) why King Crimson is more important than the Beatles. Or something.

  • Zelcorpion

    Frankly what did you expect?

    As soon as money and some degree of fame enters the picture all in a relatively anonymous enivornment, then of course hucksters, sheiters, con-artists and businessmen are getting in.

    Tucker Max for example might not even do the stealing or likely even most of the blogging. Plagiarism in the blogosphere is to be expected.

    But frankly all the knowledge combined matters only in individual relation to the people who can compare the wisdom given with their own life experiences. That means that the wisdom in those pages has to speak for itself. If you make bold statements for being i.e. an examplary mother, a highly religious person, a Master PUA (while having the looks of a better Gollum) etc. then know that sooner or later the shit will be blowing up in your face. You may still talk truth since the wisdom learned from Rollo or even Roosh is valid, but it sure as hell will not make you a hero of any sort.

    Just the same that a High-IQ basement dwelling 300-pound monster can write about banging girls every week. He may even talk a lot of wisdom if he read all the literature, but ultimately the truth will come out and errors will betray his lack of real experience. Expect more of this to come, but I don’t expect the manosphere a la Rationalmale, ROK or Heartiste to ever be given much notice in the mainstream. A toned down sensationalized entertainment version a la Mystery-PUA or Tucker Max “wisdoms” with some re-hashed truth will be available, but that will likely end up being feminism light anyway or be so completely bonkers that many people shy away from it.

  • Shiningtime

    I found this site, while skimming other sites….at work. Anyway, the “manosphere” is no different than any other type of esoteric social movement. At first it starts off true to its ideals and goals. There is usually integrity and sincerity among its members. However, as time goes by and more people join the movement, they will inevitably bring the movement down because new people bring in their own flaws, and self interest. Many people want to capitalize on the “manosphere”. That is the great paradox of social movements. The more popular they become, the faster the seeds of their demise grow. Just look at the Arab spring and what happened in Syria.

  • Will S.


  • After a while, there isn’t anything left to learn from the manosphere, and if you don’t have everything internalized within a year or so, you aren’t able to learn anything anyway. I keep looking for stuff to link to on RPW subreddit, but I rarely find anything that isn’t a rehash of something we linked to recently.

    Since the first meetup, in Vegas, it got less and less interesting reading about red pill and all it entails. There was something about meeting in person and spending time with like-minded people that makes sitting at a computer and reading about them pale in comparison. The second meetup made me even more uninterested in reading the manosphere. I look at the aggregates and maybe click on one or two articles, but never make it through them. Heck, this is probably the only complete post that I have read this week!

    It’s funny how Danny mentions my post when my post doesn’t even mention him. And where did he get the video? Did he hide a camera in the hotel room? He wasn’t even with us for most of the time: a little on Thursday, standing 15 feet away from us on Friday night, with us during the parade on Saturday, at his mom’s on Sunday, didn’t see him on Monday, and then dinner on Tuesday. We were without him 10 times as much as we were with him.

    Oh, and I met Annie Clark’s dad not too long ago at a dive bar in town, LOL.

  • Matt, well said. This is what I was trying to say all those months ago. Seems like we’re singing from the same hymn sheet.

  • I feel like I must have missed something; maybe it’s because I’m selective about the blogs I read, that I haven’t run into much of the cancer. Derivative posts, occasionally, but most of the blogs I follow aren’t explicitly Manosphere 101.

    Regardless, I’m more than ready to drop the term “Manosphere” – it was dumb to begin with. After my two-week hiatus, I’ve decided to embrace more professional standards of writing, more university than internet. And there’ll be a post coming soon on a major point of contention I have with the manosphere; for sake of honesty, maybe I’ll even toss in the personal failures that led to me making this mistake.

  • Idk who this mary chick is but I can’t think of a better example of manospambot thirstiness in action.

    And I’d like to go ahead and claim the coinage of “Worm Tits” :) We had names for all of them. If you’ve seen all the pics Danny sent Bronan and I… and I’m pretty sure you have, given he unwittingly sent me the same 4 over and over again… then God help you. Haha shoulda listened, hombre

  • Joe

    The manosphere was nothing more than a way for a few to live financially off the fear of a small minority. Now they are out of ways to repackage traditional ideas of masculinity, and are turning on each other. The weak smiting the weak. Movements require leadership. charisma, respect, being the example, confidence, ect. None of the notable voices had provided that. One cannot raise an army whilst hiding deep in a no name country, and complaining on the internet.

    And men’s rights? Again, the exact fear tactics used by feminist. Men still hold the power ie. generals, ceo’s, prime ministers, presidents. The manosphere knows this but needs a devil to scare the bottom rung of men, then claim to slay it, with a paypal button conveniently nearby. Pathetic. What has any of the manosphere leadership accomplished? Won wars? Design planes? Build skyscrapers? No, They sit around just like feminist and cry. No wonder the movement is dead. It was never significant to begin with, but they powers that be thank you for a few years of attention whoring a some money to buy cheap hookers elsewhere.

  • A few years ago I had a woman tell me she considered this Danny to be a fraud and a narcissist, and that some bloggers had asked her if she knew any private information about me, because they wanted to “out” me because I am a critic of the “Manosphere.”

  • Good points. One of the things I like about the more theologically informed sector of the Christian manosphere is that it tends to treat people better than standard manosphere bloggers.

  • Ah Matt, I’ll leave you with a quote from my good friend Krauser which he’s said many times to me over the past 2 years – “The Manosphere is Cosmopolitan for men”

  • I write like a shitty version of Mike Anissimov.

    [CensorBot sez: RUBY RIDGE, RUBY RIDGE!]

  • Hey, I remember you!

    My interaction with the “manosphere” was intense but brief. I’d say I was really only involved for the better part of a year, maybe two at max. When I noticed the audience was generally becoming the same thing that they hated, just on the opposite end of the spectrum, I got discouraged.

    Nice to see you’re blogging again. Last I had heard you were taking off for parts unknown or something.

  • ray

    Yikes! dood is there a planet big enuf to hold your ego? lol

    You are a “founder” of the “manosphere”? You and your grouplings? LOL!!

    I watched you enter the scene, spitting bile and foam and pseudonyms, about a decade after I watched the REAL “founders of the manosphere” actually start all this, laying the groundwork for the late-comers like you, Mister Bad Faith . . . who then quickly began awarding titles and accomplishments to themselves.

    Truly… an astonishing display of narcissism and self-service. You have outdone yourself this time, youngster. Wow, do kids these days need daddies.

  • 2 adages everyone should remember:

    Trust no one
    Everybody lies

  • Lesson to Minter and Danny: If you’re going to make a threat, make sure yous can actually carry the damn thing out, and its a threat in the first place.

  • Matt!

    Its a shame that you are leaving the Manosphere but i do understand the reason why you are doing it! I do wish you a ton of success in your new path! I’m looking forward to it as i will be visiting often and reading your blog regardless!!

  • Bronan leaving was because of Dannyfrom504? That fucking cunt. I was sad when people first starting outing him as a fraud, but now I’m pissed off.

    Bronan’s writing was the best; jackassfrom504 hurt us all when he pulled that shit.

    What a faggot.

  • Ah yes, “There’s Something About Mary”. Magical semen in hair and all. I have been skirting around this “problem that won’t be named” for awhile debating what to do. After putting feelers out there it became clear that if I mentioned names or did anything as bold as you, I would be accused of “girl drama” and never taken seriously. I decided to let it lay knowing the center cannot hold, but then again some recent events, the ones that inspired my “Rumors” post, got me thinking again. I found out that I was being excluded in part from a fairly known site. The site owner told me they were told by SSM that I associate with Lena and Lena doxes people, so therefore I must dox people too. Nothing new under the sun from the sun, but what I found most troubling was the blind acceptance of this story without even taking the second to ask for my side. The site owner agreed to hear my story and this is what I told the person.

    “Given I don’t know the specifics of the story you have heard about me, I can’t answer specifically, so will speak generally and just give a statement of facts of the past several months. I do know a few of the things that have been said about me, but to you it could be a whole other story. If you want to hear my side of any specific charges she has alleged, you will have to tell me what they are if its not covered below. Whatever was said about me and others must have been so manipulative or so convincing that it didn’t even occur to you to ask for other sides. That should give pause. Thank you for listening now.

    My issues with SSM all stemmed from when she banned me and wrote me off as a troll. That was hurtful given I had been blogging for so long and I earned a solid reputation for not using my pussy pass and feminine wiles to wiggle out of debates and for taking the heat the men so freely dished. If I wanted to be part of a male space, I learned how to handle myself accordingly. Because SSM gets so many comments, there was never anything left for me to say by the time I joined, plus I was getting tired of the echo chamber a lot of these comboxes are turned into, so when I commented I would challenge her and her readers more than I would just enthusiastically jump in and says, “wow, this is such a great post SSM, love ya” So much of what she writes has been said before, but because she dresses it up with titillation and charms everyone acts like its the first time its ever heard and that she is this biblical and intellectual scholar. So, because I left more critical and challenging comments than she was used to(not constant praise), and as usual women can’t handle criticism, she got rid of me and called me a troll. It was classic and I have seen it time and time before in the sphere.

    The final nail for me is when I stuck up for Lena, not because I am her BFF, but because she was being wronged and tarnished by SSM and I tend to support underdogs. People can say what they want about her, but I know her from when she use to comment and write posts for the Spearhead and I enjoyed her comments and admired the way she handled herself with the men. Someone had mentioned Lena’s name in passing. That was all –just her name. No link, nothing offensive. And SSM deleted it because she said she didn’t want Lena’s name bringing drama to her place. I thought this was a queen bitch play, so I called her out for this in her next post in which SSM specifically stated to call her out if we felt she was being a bitch. After I mentioned I thought she handled the Lena reference like a queen bee bitch, She left a long comment calling me a troll, and then 10 minutes later deleted my comment(in fairness I told her she could delete it if the name of Lena offended her so much), her response, and edited the part of her post where it said we were allowed to call her out for her bitchiness. This just all proved to me how she can’t handle criticism. In typical woman fashion, the solution is to delete comments, rewrite the script and ban people she disagrees with and doesn’t have the big girl panties to debate with.

    I don’t know how SSM got this idea that Lena and I are friends, all I can guess is its because I defended her when her name was deleted and she assumed only BFFs defend each other. I get crap for never defending women and always writing harsh things, but the few times I do stick up for them it usually bites me. No good deed goes unpunished.

    SSM has managed to “backlead” the entire manosphere. She appears gracious and indifferent on the surface, but its the stuff that goes on that you can’t see. This is why I never moderated for 5 years (until recently), I don’t like pulling fast ones with deleting comments. With the amount of comments she get, its like being in a crowd and you can pick pocket…so many people, delete a comment here and there, reword something here and there and it goes largely unnoticed by the masses.

    The debacle that went down on her site regarding me all happened so fast, that if you weren’t refreshing screen every few minutes, you would have totally missed it. No one knows the way I was banned and called a troll for merely disagreeing with a woman.
    So, since then, that was November, I have had strong suspicions and a few pieces of evidence cross my path that SSM and some of her sisters put on this gracious act in public, but behind closed doors their true colors come out. Like I said when I started, I don’t know what has been told to you, so please ask specific questions if you need clarification. Also, if you are open to hearing my side, it is probably wise to get Lena’s side and anyone else she has maligned before assumptions are made and you are backlead into the web of a woman”

    From the best I can tell that is where the troubles began with SSM. I stood up for Lena cause I generally liked her and respected her from when she posted on “The Spearhead” and saw her being wronged in an incredibly catty way. She has been around as long as I have and had a good reputation with no known involvement in “girl drama” or doxing. Lesson learned never,ever, ever defend a woman. I should have known better. I have always allowed Lena to comment at my site and have engaged with her elsewhere and this has branded me guilty by association. No good deed ever goes unpunished. I suppose anyone you are civil with online automatically makes you an an associate. I have the screenshot of my deleted comment if anyone wants it cause I knew she would delete it.
    After I was written off there as a troll, I went on my way and was going to drop it but what I learned from this site owner has showed me it won’t be dropped and that perhaps people have been swayed from going to my site cause of my alleged association with Lena, just like she tried to sway people away from Lena’s site cause of malware. I had a draft post ready to go with my story above but again decided against it, trying to leave it all alone.

    At the end of the day, this is a she said/she said and people will come to their own conclusions as they wish. Those who have followed me since the beginning, know full well I have never been involved in any “girl drama” and had a good reputation until SSM. I avoid herds (Traditional Christianity site, RPW Reddit, Girls being Girls, etc.) and being friendly with women for a reason. I had one miss-step, decided to stick up for the underdog, a woman who I saw being treated unfairly and here I am sucked into all this.

    I have more comments based on stuff actually said in this post and will get to those soon. For now, wanted to get my story out there as I see once again SSM has nothing better to do, but prattle away during this “Lenten break” ( and if she is going to fall off the cliff and die, looks like she is grabbing my shirt making sure I fall and die with her. The last desperate breath of a desperate housewife.

  • Joe

    I really love sucking off Tucker Max. His 5-inch pecker feels SO natural banging against my uvula.

    [CensorBot sez: I should have banned you when you started bashing MikeCF. Go shill for Max somewhere else, troll.]

  • Tucker Max won’t destroy anyone. He’s an example of what the worst of the “Manosphere” is about – which means the basement-dwelling spergnerds will flock to him. Good riddance.

  • I don’t care too much about Tucker Max, Sunshine, or any of these other people. I do occasionally read “manosphere” blogs; but, I assume when I read the usual “I pulled a train on 20 supermodels in one night, and they’re all begging me to move in!!1!” type post, that there are a few slight exaggerations implied there (at least in the subtext). I guess none of this is really surprising. We all put our best faces forward, on the net and in public, and none of us are exactly who we say we are. That’s sorta dishonest, but there’s an element of *fake it ’til you make it* in there that is not completely without merit.

    I am glad you’ll keep writing, even if it’s not to rehash the old narratives. You’re a fine writer, who has the ability to disagree with your intellectual opponents clearheadedly, maintaining good humor all the while. That’s not very common in this era, when everyone imagines themselves a contestant on the Maury show. Peace!

  • SSM is the exact reason why I generally avoid female bloggers in the “manosphere”. I read her for a while, but then I got the sense that the majority of her posts were just about pandering to her male readers and passively-aggressively sticking it to her husband. Blue-pill behavior wrapped up in a Red-pill package.

    I voiced my opinion ONCE about SSM on Reddit, and got shouted down pretty quickly. I assumed that I was just misunderstanding her if so many people in the Red Pill culture so revered her. It would seem that I backed down too quickly.

    Thank you for all the information. I assume she’ll be back online before the year’s end. She seems to like the attention.

  • Wow, I just realized that “get off my internets” link I just posted takes you NOT To SSM’s regular blog. She set up a whole new blog to spew all that. I guess this way her regular readers won’t see it and if you go to her regular blog, the top story is how she is breaking for to be with family, yada, yada, to leave people with that pretty picture. Go to this new site and the first post was April 11. So, she knew Matt’s take down was coming and looks like was trying to build up an army to defend her before the story broke by smearing me and Lena further.

  • ” no one has dared to publicly call her out”

    When Lena S. article went up I immediately went to twitter and called her out. I also posted Lena S. post on my blog:
    (Though the link has now disappeared)

    I also shared that link with LGR:

  • She sent me this email:

    Hello Infowarrior1,
    I have always appreciated your thoughtful comments on my site, but I don’t wish for you to comment further on my blog as it is obvious that you bear me ill-will. I am sorry for that, as I don’t know what I did to offend you. Please accept my apologies.

    But also please understand the following, since you seem to be…I don’t know…are you white knighting for Lena or something? That is absolutely your right but it wasn’t something I expected from you. But in any event:

    1. I had no ill feelings toward Lena, but she had developed some kind of obsession with me for reasons I do not fully understand.

    2. When she started her new blog, I was happy initially and hoped to read there, even if I did not participate.

    3. Reading there on my iPad was no problem, but when I visited later on my PC, Kapersky’s alerted me that malware was downloading. My PC was infected with an iscript framer trojan horse. I thought perhaps there was a pop up ad on her site that I had not noticed, so I simply disinfected my computer.

    4. I visited her site twice more and both times Kapersky’s detected malware downloading. At that point, my husband took a look at her site and forbade me to visit it ever again due to the crass content and what seemed like clumsy attempts to doxx other women. I guess she does not know that I blog openly now, so I am undoxxable. She seems to still believe, since I changed minor details about my life in an attempt to obscure my real life identity when I was blogging anonymously, that she can somehow doxx me by threatening to reveal those details about me. But there are no details left to reveal, so it’s all very odd. It doesn’t seem problematic to you that she posted personal information on her blog about other women who do blog anonymously? You’re okay with that behavior?

    I have never visited her site again since my husband told me not to do so. We filed a spam report with WordPress. WordPress does not email you to let you know what they may have found, if anything, so I have no idea what the end result of that was.

    5. Later, someone going by the handle JG emailed me repeatedly trying to entice me to click on links to Lena’s site. I politely refused. I have copies of all these email exchanges because it was so very suspicious, given the fact that my PC was infected three times previously there. Try to put yourself in that situation. How would you respond? Would it not make you rather suspicious and a bit angry?

    6. Today someone told me that Laura had a strange post up. My husband had forbidden me to read her site anymore as well, so I could not view it, but someone sent it to me by email. That was wrong of me to allow, and I confessed it to him and he forgave me. I am a sinner in need of God’s grace and have never claimed otherwise. I am grateful for Christ’s atoning sacrifice. And my husband was very right to forbid me to read her site, and I fully intend to obey him on that and (with God’s help) every other point as well.

    I have slandered no one and I have not lied about anything. I know that there will be no further contact between you and me, but I believe you to be a brother in Christ, and therefore it was important to me to explain the situation to you to the best of my ability, even though I know that you will probably accuse me (unjustly, I might add) of lying. But it is the truth nevertheless.

    Thank you for understanding why I no longer wish for you to participate on my site. I do wish you the best and I hope God will bless you richly.

    In Christ’s Name,
    Sunshine Mary

  • My reply:
    Either from you or from anyone else. I will not tolerate bullshit. And the evidence suggests that you are the guilty party in that regard. Slander is unacceptable.

    That’s why I did this. I do not do this because of her femaleness. But because I cannot tolerate appalping behaviour

  • The rule should be that we should assume that any woman that tries to join the manosphere unless proven is an entryist.

  • Some tips on how to deal with women:

    Just as this can be applied to the workplace. So it can be applied here.

  • Info,
    “Red Pills Sets me Free” was banned from SSM too for the same reason–he calls out and knows BS when he sees it.

    On my RPW post, I mentioned in comments this:
    “SSM ingratiates herself with Danny504. Just look at his blog. Is that someone a highly feminine woman should be associating with? His twitter has a photo of a girl with her panties pulled down. I could go on. But, I know, its not for me to say. If husband approves–its all cool.”

    I thought it odd then that such a godly women would associate with a loser like him. Now look at the connections. Different sides of the same coin. He refers to her as sister and had her linked under “blog ho’s” and there he is defending her in the email Matt shared.

  • Will S.

    Birds of a feather, flock together…

  • Phero

    The manosphere like any group of people will be representative of the general population.
    Most people are losers and wankers. Attention whores and people who see a buck will jump on the bandwagon (male or female).
    Woman will come out seeking validation and male attention, it’s just what happens.
    But while a lot of time is focused on female psychology, the male version does not disappear.
    And that means most guys will be beta suckups though many honestly trying to do better.
    Most guys will buckle at any female attention like Minter who married the other girl who would fuck him.
    Danny is too full of his own shit to matter.

    Is this the continuous process of evacuating any space that gets feminized?
    Do we just walk away and quit?
    TuckerMax is another drunken loser cum famous and now has a female boss, surely an easy target as he will always back down and apologize so he doesn’t sleep in the dog kennel.
    And yet D&P (great blog) quits? …

    I understand anybody who has achieved conventional success or doing well has a lot to lose by putting their real names on such blogs. It’s a dangerous game, but that’s part of the excitment.

  • Matt,
    Thank you for seeing through the BS. When I started, women had to earn respect and it was not given overnight as it is now. The “pussy pass” term was in full force and now I hear that term used rarely.
    Re the screenshot of that email SSM sent about me.First,the way she tries to come off as so gracious. That is what she likes to do. Leave me to have the courage to say something in public and then she never responds to me pretending she is above girl drama.
    LOL re honey pot. Anyone with a brain knows in the context I was using it to refer to a “sex pot”. Honey pot is well known slang. How about rather than try to guess what I was trying to say she debate me or send me an email. She has never, ever sent me an email, but rather goes running to you and its obvious now other men for shelter. Gee, why isn’t she running to HHG? She is so playing coy and using wiles. She is saying something like “huh, I’m so confused why would LGR think I am not real, I use my real name when she doesn’t”. Again, missing the point. I didn’t say her as an actual person wasn’t real, but her stories.
    If she was co-opted into the sphere, well she can take initiative to try to opt herself out. For starters, email “Viva la Manosphere” stating please do not link to me, but then of course that would take traffic away from her site and she likes the attention. Since I was banned and written off as a troll in her site, I use proxies, as I always doing when going to a feminist sites. She probably sees 30 hits from the same proxy all being used by different people and thinks its me. Even if not using the proxy, going to her site that many times, or at least refreshing it is reasonable. With how fast the 300 plus comments pour in, you have to be refreshing a lot to keep up with discussion.
    From where you cut off the email, its clear that she must have rambled on a good long while about me. Again, where is the time for this? And why not take this to me directly or debate me in the comments at any site, at my site. My open post to the RPW saying “lets discuss” would have been a good chance to address me about anything. My guess is she doesn’t want the paper trail and comments are a paper trail as referred to in the video inforwarrior linked to. Rather, it is easier to hide behind the coattails of men.

  • Some good material came out of the sphere, or rather some good material inspired the growth of the sphere (Pook, Bonecrker, Heartiste’s Commandments and Maxims). The rest is sort of like in Kick Ass 2, where a bunch of losers put on terrible costumes and think that makes them superheroes.

    The ideal red pill transformation would go something like this: man gets dumped by girlfriend/is a virgin loser, hits rock bottom, gets on the internet, finds the greats and spends a weekend reading up on them, has his “ah ha” moment, then gets the fuck off the internet and gets out into the world, probably starting by hitting the gym.

  • Matt,

    I never knew SSM was a fraud. Then again, I’m not a regular reader over there; I only visit if there’s something of interest to read. As for Danny from 504, something seemed to be-well, wrong; something didn’t add up. AGain, I’m not a regular reader of his; as with SSM, I’d only visit on the occasion something interested me.

    As for plagiarizing other’s writings, I never did that. If I used someone’s stuff, I always gave full attribution; I made it clear that it wasn’t from me. That’s the only right thing to do.


  • Will S.
  • Will S.
  • I’ll be honest, I had only barely heard of Danny 504 before this article, and never heard of Mary. A quick look at his blog shows articles on the top about female ejaculation, “sexy time” and having a harem, so I have to assume it’s yet another poor many’s Roissy. I think a big problem with the manoshpere is the red pill is not really something you write about, the red pill is a perspective you write about things from. I love Aurini’s blog and it’s mostly about metaphysics/theology/philosophy from a red pill perspective, I love Aaron Clarey’s blog, which is mostly about economics through a red pill perspective. But I have no interest in just reading about how many chicks a guy has banged, regardless of whether he’s telling the truth or not.

  • “Is this the continuous process of evacuating any space that gets feminized?
    Do we just walk away and quit?”

    Why do we need to vacate the place that is being feminized? We do not tolerate bullshit from them. So that either all the red-pill men gets ostracized and then to form their own space. Or those people will be forced to leave.

    Screw letting the degenerates chase us off our turf.

  • McGriff

    Honestly all these lgrobbins comments just prove this is girly cat fight bitching. If you can read more than 2 of her paragraphs you are a masochist. Is Sunshine Mary in the wrong? I don’t know, who can make sense of all this girl logic bullshit.

    Why get in the middle of cat fight?

    Yes Sunshine’s white knight brigade is annoying but this is the internet and she is a woman so its par for the course. Really easy to ignore them. Most manosphere guys don’t really read her site, the ones who white knight out themselves as charlatans and fuckos and deserve to be called out. Guys like Rollo and deti comment on her blog to argue with her and call her out on bullshit. The universe calibrates itself.

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  • edwin calais

    “Yikes! dood is there a planet big enuf to hold your ego? lol

    You are a “founder” of the “manosphere”? You and your grouplings? LOL!!

    I watched you enter the scene, spitting bile and foam and pseudonyms, about a decade after I watched the REAL “founders of the manosphere” actually start all this, laying the groundwork for the late-comers like you, Mister Bad Faith . . . who then quickly began awarding titles and accomplishments to themselves.

    Truly… an astonishing display of narcissism and self-service. You have outdone yourself this time, youngster. Wow, do kids these days need daddies.” – ray

    My God, ray!

    I see you all over the place with a bee in your bonnet over this, along with your buddy Anon-over-the-hill.

    Apparently, you self absorbed Baby Boomers think, once again, that you invented the fucking world.

    You didn’t.

    I see you grey-haired punks, all trying to claim you were one of the ten active MRA’s who started fighting back in the sixties or seventies, even though the MRM itself generally doesn’t considered itself to be anything but turd smells until the 1980’s. And even then, it was composed solely of you dip-shit boomers who weren’t actually opposed to feminism, but rather that men were left out of it. You might have founded “The MRM”, a movement that merely begged for equality with the masters they themselves made, but the MGTOW aspect, and the later Manosphere aspect are entirely different from your Boomertopian bullshit, because they reject the notion of equality of the sexes – which you supplicanting Boomers begged for without receiving.

    That’s all YOU can claim to have created.


    End of fucking story.

    A bunch of losers who bought into a lie. You were a bunch of turds with your cocks tucked between your legs, crying like babies that women weren’t giving you the equality you expected you would get.

    Boo Hoo! You were wrong. Grow up and admit it, you turd, instead of trying to claim you invented EVERYTHING to do with anti-feminism.

    It boggles my mind, how Boomtards like you have the fucking NERVE to sit here and lecture younger men about how stupid they are for not knowing that you subscribed to an MRM publication made on some garage sized printing press that only had a distribution of 400 a month… and now you claim we’re idiots for not acknowledging you, because you were around 40 fucking years ago when nobody could have POSSIBLY known about you! How is a thirty year old man supposed to be to blame for YOUR failed publication of 400 subscribers FORTY YEARS AGO?

    And to your claim of “the real founders.” GFY. The “real” founders of Anti-feminism were The Bible, Buddha, Aristotle, Cato the Elder, Mathieu of Boulogne, Thomas Jefferson, Kant, Schopenhauer, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Tolstoy, Belfort Bax, and countless others who have acknowledged THE TRUTH where you boomtards merely accepted the politically narrative of the day, and rejected all the knowledge before you. And now YOU, you fucking idjits, are here claiming you “founded” the successful manosphere (not the abysmal MRM), when it was already founded before the coming of Christ! Why the fuck did you assholes ignore a REAL anti-feminists like Belfort Bax, while claiming all we needed was a little more eek-wallet-tee?

    The arrogance of you bastards!

    MGTOW was founded as a response to the politically correct bullshit you assholes created the MRM as… until guys like Elam found it was popular enough to commandeer back into the MRM fold, calling AVFM “MGTOW Central,” and having it led by shit-tards the original MGTOW’s have never even heard of, but who claim were MGTOW since the 80’s (Go figure, since it was launched in 2006 and NEVER EVER called Mig-tow – on purpose!), and it became as meaningless as the Boomtard MRM has always been. The Manosphere arose upon the same ideals MGTOW was based upon before its corruption, and now here you fucking Boomtards are again, claiming that the movement which rejects your equality bullshit in the MRM, was actually created by you all along.

    GFY. Asshole.

  • ARoss

    This sort of reminds me of David Bowie’s Ziggy Stardust, The ‘sphere like the Spiders From Mars has gone too far from it’s original messages that the originators like the band seem to view breaking up/away from the sphere as the only answer.

  • PUMPsix


    Maybe Danny with latch onto the Alt-Right movement and create the blog: DannyfromtheShire – arguing for traditionalism, etc.

  • LOL i find this funny because i got blocked from Return of Kings for criticizing it’s writers. I used to read quite a number of manospherian blogs but i barely read anything from it anymore. If i want tips on dealing with women i go to either Christian Mcqueen’s blog or Good looking loser (awesome blog btw.) Working out? I just head to Bold and determined, Chaos and Pain, or any of the blogs that Jack Donovan links to. Most of these blogs are not part of the manosphere.

  • Oh and BTW, Sunshine is dull as fuck. The chunky chick i fucked last week is way prettier and probably has bigger tits and ass than she does.

  • jmd

    To completely diverge from all the other comments – where did you get brunch? I haven’t been in Buffalo for spring in a few years, and I don’t remember if it’s too soon for nice weather. It’s normally beautiful in May.

  • JMD: Hamlin House on Franklin, just north of the Theater District. Ordered a frittata and it was great. I usually prefer Betty’s due to their “blunch” special (where they serve dinner food like hamburgers during breakfast hours), but they only serve blunch on Saturday mornings.

  • D

    The same thing happens all over the internet, talk out weighs action. The red pill world and the paleo world are about action and results not talk and theory. Over in the paleo world the blog sphere is filled with fat fucks trying to sell you magic. The current piece of magic for sale is RS starch. Does it work…yes. Is it as effective as a tight diet, deadlifts and squats? No. Discipline has been a unfashionable concept for some time now but it is discipline that creates results and makes us men. Krauser is right when he says “The Manosphere is Cosmopolitan for men”

  • Haven’t seen so much drama since high school. Unfortunately, even if you are right, they started it and all, by engaging in it it becomes hard to tell the difference between the drama-starter and the one who’s reacting. If you’re involved in drama/catfight, prepare to look undiginified.

    Another thing. Unless you met the person and they became a part of your life somehow, you don’t know anyone here, not truly. So any sort of deep trust and great expectations are mistaken. Just because you have the same enemies and beliefs, doesn’t mean you are close friends. I know many people who’ve been burned by thinking internet personalities are their friends.

  • @emmatheemo

    How can this situation can be handled better then?

    Shouldn’t bullshit be called out as it was done in the case of Susan walsh?

    I am all ears.

  • infowarrior1,

    Assuming one is truly an honest person who isn’t showing up to feed off on drama, and not a drama queen playing the victim of other drama queens, I can understand the concern of such a person and sympathise. I’m not saying they shouldn’t defend themselves. I’m just saying it might not help them come out looking better. Readers don’t always have time to investigate thoughroughly and figure out exactly who is right and who is wrong. Unless they know you very well personally, it’s all a big bitchfest to them. Because drama usually surrounds people who like stirring it up or have a personality conductive to it.

    But being consistent and relatively predictable helps. Not being shrouded in mystery helps. A history of being relatively drama-free helps, too.

  • haha DannyFromtheShire, that’s awesome

  • Retrenched

    ‘Hamburgers — the cornerstone of any nutritious breakfast…’

  • I am glad that youhave realized these things. Don’t forget!

  • Mina

    I love your blog. I visit often but rarely post. I do hope you continue on in some fashion. I credit your review of the Anonymous Conservative for changing my life in a radical way.

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  • Interesting piece. I think you nailed it. I’ve been following Tucker since about 2003 or so, and Roissy since 2007, as an outsider looking in. There’s a lot of good advice in the ‘sphere, but also a lot of bullshit. Over time the frauds and flakes fall away. Sounds as if you’re setting your sights on bigger and better things. Good for you,

  • Sent you an email.


  • Random Angeleno

    So much drama … tempest in teapots
    Glad I just a dumb commenter, not a writer.
    Back to my previously scheduled workout.

  • Well, if the Manosphere was ever a real “thing” being as widely diverse as it is, it is certainly being killed by hissy-fit in-fighting like this. And it’s the ego-stroking one-upsmanship that has largely stopped me reading much of the “manosphere.” I drop in here on occasion to see if there’s anything interesting, have stopped reading ROK pretty much completely, and really only regularly visit Vox’s Alpha Male Gameplan and the Chateau, which I don’t really take very seriously anymore. As TempestTcup notes above, if you can’t internalize the basic “red pill” message of the “manosphere” after a year or so, reading internet blogs probably isn’t going to help, and it all gets quite repetitive after a while.

    I’d known of Danny’s blog but only read it a few times over a year ago. I’d visit SSM only slightly more often, but the heavy Christianizing really isn’t my style. But a tweet brought me to the drama-filled shitstorm. Having read SSM’s reply as well as Matt’s, uh, take on it I have no idea who is “right” (nor do I really care), but I must say, she seems a little more credible. Since the links about her supposedly false claims don’t actually link to her blog or somewhere she made those claims, but to sites critical of her, apparently because she’s a fundie Christian, without much actual documentation. And linking to her kids social media is just creepy.

    I don’t read blogs for petty posts verging on petulant. This whole thing seem kind of silly…

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  • The vast majority of you are here because of Forney and a few others.

    He/They/We created and organized a reader base.

    Guys like Matt, Roosh, and I have had our faces out there for years. (Matt knows how far I go back, unlike the bulk of the haters.)

    You’re riding waves that other men created. You’re riding waves that other men made. If you had any decency, you’d have some gratitude.

    Heck, if you asked Matt or I, we’d both agree that we owe a debt of gratitude to the original Roissy (and then Roosh with his forum) for starting to create a place where like-minded men started to congregate.

    So it always make me laugh when guys like Doc Illusion – who had NOTHING to do with the manosphere – would shit talk Roosh and others.

    You all (or most of you) have attached yourselves to a scene that you had nothing to do with creating.

    Because you’ve never actually created anything in your lives, you don’t “get” what’s going on.

    For us, the mansophere wasn’t just another cool site on the Internet. It’s something we risked our jobs for, had personal and professional issues arise over, and something we literally lost sleep over.

    So it sucks when frauds and other losers entered into the scene and ruined it.

    You either “get it,” or you don’t.

  • Bravo, D&P. Comment of the century.

    These manospambots don’t get it and they never will.

  • AnonymousBosch

    Mike: you’ve got a good blog full of solid advice, but not everyone who comes to the manosphere lacks knowledge, achievement or discipline in their own lives. I was attracted by solid writing: Forney, Donovan, Roosh, Aurini, McQueen, Free Northerner, some facets of Heartiste, (though I don’t believe hypergamy exists and wonder why everyone is trying to bang feminists instead of targeting the well-adjusted women, who do exist). I never really got the sense it was something ‘created’ by anyone, but just a continuation of philosophical questions that have always been pondered by men.

    Hung out at the Roosh Forum a bit. Suspected I was seeing a lot of men incapable of forming bonding relationships due to an inability to forgive flaws in others and blaming it on scapegoats like feminism and hypergamy. A worrying degree of rationalisation of a schizoid lifestyle, where solitude is seen as a ‘logical choice’ and people are reduced to stereotypes, which Matt touches on with his St. Vincent story. Drifted away from there because I sensed a lack of respect for the readership from Roosh and Tuthmosis with some feminised pranking, which I saw as building on a ‘thriving on drama’ mindset created by the Eating Disorders article, (which I see as dooming ROK). Roosh has since dialled himself back from his internet use: I think he saw the trap he was falling into.

    Too many people are looking for an easy scapegoat to blame for their lack of inaction. It’s not easy to teach discipline or working towards a goal whilst delaying gratification. I’m not entirely sure it can even be taught, and isn’t just innate, or dependent upon cultivated resilience through hardship and disappointment.

    My advice: Remain humble and encouraging, and your readers will sense it, and you’ll build a stronger bond with them. If we are to show gratitude, it’s already happening through the monetisation of your blogs, and the letters of thanks you’ll receive from men taking your advice. And, like I said, I recognise solid advice.

    I’ll keep reading whatever you guys choose to write about: masculine-focused or not.

    Matt: how goes the music? I enjoy your occasional music reviews, and, as a musician am interested to hear what you come up with.

  • Will S.

    Whack-a-mole – look who popped up again:

    Yes, it’s Vanessa, alias Alte / Cecilia / ButterflySquash / Black&German, blogging again!

    Just in time, for those who crave more female manosphere drama; who seek to live vicariously through a married woman!

    Well, for now, her comments thread is turned off. But you know she won’t be able to resist for that long!

    Oh, happy day!

  • @ Will,
    Get out! You know, being in German this time it might actually make more sense.

  • Will S.

    @ LGR: Ha! :)

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  • I do not know if I should thank Matt and Will for sending me a weeks’ worth of traffic in two days, or mutter curses as I have had to deal with comments and trolls that I usually am spared. I usually enjoy Matt’s posts, but when you out folks you get all huffy and PC like.

    Which bores me. I’ve known far too many leftists from working through university in the freezing works to having to deal with them in the senior common room. And they do not improve with age.

    But this has led to me switching moderation on for the first time in years,

  • Broomhilda


    *slow claps*

    Sorry you were being persecuted by that narcissistic freak Sunshine Thiry. Crazy women can ruin your life.

    [CensorBot sez: You said it.]

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  • Retrenched

    I think Bryce Laliberte nailed it a while back when he said that [paraphrasing] the biggest inherent flaw of the manosphere is that it’s built upon the worship of women.

    And that’s pretty much what you see in the ‘sphere, everywhere you go — alphas defining their worth by the quality and quantity of poon they can get, or betas working to improve so that can get more and better poon, or omegas despising women for denying them the precious gift of poon.

  • I rarely read anything from the sphere anymore, but glad I decided to give it a visit, even though I’m visiting as a ghost. People just aren’t that horrible and life can be pretty good if you’re defined by more than what you’re against, as stated above. I’m less plugged in than most, but know a few of the originals. The general sentiment I’ve gotten from all is there are too many basement dwellers and liars.

    Once you get accustomed to not clicking, you forget it and can think about more important things than why those mean women won’t accept our natural charisma and leadership.

    And as long as we’re being tolerant, Speedy Ortiz’s “Real Hair” ep is solid even though the band is fronted by one of those evil women.

  • Eric

    The Manosphere isn’t dead. Maybe he’s moving on and that’s fine, but away from Matt’s perspective, the Manosphere is still the Manosphere. Content is still going up, new stuff mixed with evolving stuff and new takes on old stuff. Newly awakening men are still coming aboard. Awakened men are still checking in to drop off experiences, vent, discuss, analyze, debate, and learn.

    Matt implies that as he goes, so goes the Manosphere. But if Matt goes, his blog won’t be the first nor the last Manosphere blog to go away. Over the years, Manosphere blogs with bigger stature than his have stopped updating. At the same time, Matt can say he’s out, but if he continues to post content that red-pill men find interesting, then he’s still in.

    The Manosphere isn’t a dues-paying, pin-wearing, card-carrying membership with a meeting hall. What you post is what determines whether you’re a Manosphere blogger or not. In that sense, there are Manosphere bloggers who don’t identify as red pill, and never heard the term Manosphere or of Roissy, Rollo, Roosh, etc..

    It doesn’t matter whether you identity yourself as a Manosphere blogger. You either are or you aren’t one based on your content. Author brand names don’t make the Manosphere the Manosphere. The interactions and content make the Manosphere. The blogger names are just labels on the content, and the labels have been changing (or sustaining) since the beginning.

  • Matt

    Wow, that was harsh but justified.

    The “manosphere” has changed, it’s no longer the little community it used to be. Lots of snake oil salesmen have discovered the hordes of gullible men.

    Back when Matt was off on his hitchhiking adventure, I actually sent a donation to support his travels. I did have a a few qualms that I might be getting scammed, but I did it anyway. It just sounded like a cool thing to do. Today, I would hesitate, the sort of folks I run into these days are nearly as trustworthy as the folks back then.

    I’ve changed over the years, I’m very different from who I used to be and much of it is thanks to the manospere. As one blogger put it “The truth shall set you free, but first it’s going to really piss you off”. I’m still in the annoyed stages.

    What next? I don’t know. I do know that I am habitually kind and caring which is seriously anti-survival in our current society.

  • Retweeted by Sunshine Mary
    Broomhilda2014 ‏@MuiMui2010 5h

    @SunshineMarySSM I wrote a comment supporting you on Matt, and it was edited to make it look like I was damning you.Thought you should know.

    Matt, Is this true? If so, no need to spare me from heat.

  • Laura: Yes, though I did it more out of disgust with idiocy then to “spare” you. I censor idiots and retards as a matter of course, and anyone who supports Sunshine Thiry after reading this post is an idiot.

  • As an aside, the reaction to this post from certain quarters really shows how degenerate the manosphere/Dark Enlightenment has become. Here we have a woman who has been exposed as a dangerous charlatan and these faggots are defending her, dismissing the evidence against her with a wave of the hand. Even Dalrock has sided with Sunshine by deleting me from his blogroll. Everything she says is taken as gospel while me, the person who’s been blogging for nearly half-a-decade about this shit, is dismissed as just grasping for attention.

    Geldings. Losers. Ass-kissers. I fully expect Broomhilda and her ilk to cheerlead for Team Woman, but the reactions of the men are embarrassing. They’re no different than the white feminists who kept running interference for Hugo Schwyzer up until the point where even he couldn’t deny his psychopathy. If you’re not willing to police your own ranks, to kick out the frauds and fakes, you deserve to marginalized.

    At the very least, this dustup has shown me who I can trust and who I can’t.

  • Will S.

    It is quite something, Matt, isn’t it? I’ve had fellow Christians trying to guilt-trip me; I’ve watched people try to create a false moral equivalency between the ‘sides’. Interesting. Not buying in. Don’t care what others think.

  • Will S.

    I just saw the German movie ‘Hannah Arendt’ this afternoon, about the German-Jewish philosopher of the same name, who covered the Adolf Eichmann trial, and pissed off her fellow Jews because of her pointing the finger at some of the Jewish leadership, saying they were partly to blame for the Holocaust. In a 1950s version of political correctness, they howled at her – she lost friends; a neighbour called her a Nazi whore – all because she dared call it as she saw it.

    I’ve lost personal friends in the church for attacking neo-conservatism, for insufficiently supporting the American Empire.

    I don’t give a rip.

    Men shouldn’t, about what idiots think about them.

    Most people are idiots, anyway.

    Fuck ’em.

  • Will: Exactly. These idiots have proven that they’re either codependents who are susceptible to the wiles of a narcissist (in which case they’re foolish sheep) or they value their fantasy online girlfriend over reality (in which case they’re as sick in the head as Sunshine herself). Or they’re just letting their hatred of me cloud their perception of reality. Doesn’t matter in the end; they’re all human garbage.

  • Matt,
    The timing of Dalrock’s stepping away is interesting. Perhaps he knew this was going to break given SSM started the temp blog on Friday, April 11 and also said on same day at regular blog that she was going on break for family reasons, yet this post was not up till Monday, April 16. I am surprised there hasn’t been more talk about that alone. No one questions the weirdness of her setting up this temp blog solely to address this issue. Why could this not be done on regular blog? My guess is soon the temp blog will be deleted she will go quiet for a month until this is over and then go back posting at regular blog where she left off with the pretty story of being away for family stuff (which may coincidentally be true), but the real reason she did that break post on regular blog is cause she knew this smackdown was coming. B posting what she did on the temp blog, she gave her tribe a heads up to get their boxing gloves on for her, she rallied the troops.

    Also, this isn’t about the children. She claimed feminists doxed her children earlier and that didn’t stop her from blogging. Yet, you post that one site and all of sudden that is going to stop her. By alleging to stop because you are doing it, she can pull out the “creepy man” excuse. She would go on and on about how its worth the price, even her Christmas post was “God sets the lonely in family.”. The children excuse is helping her deflect from other details cause people’s heartstrings are always pulled for children. Its a liberal tactic. From what I remember on the google+profile there was a bithdate of 1995, yet she is still now saying her oldest is 14. The cries of doxing is like how the feminist go “rape, rape”. Its a victim card. Again, if she was so concerned about safety she would have quit blogging long ago when the first dust-up happened with the feminists.

    I guess she admitted to only two biological children and now the story is the other ones she talked about they are “helping to raise”. Yet why did she never mention that before about taking in someone else’s children. .That would be a good thing to add to the godly, Christian woman’s resume. It would just puff her up more. If there are truly 5 kids living with her day in and day out that brings back the point of why on earth does she find the time to post, tweet, and comment like she does. If the oldest is truly 14 that is a lot of young ones, a lot of cleaning, cooking, helping with schoolwork, etc., to keep up blogging.

    This comment alone is going to send her into full on tizzy again probably. Look at LGR, obsessed! Rather, I am truly, truly fascinated. This is a textbook case of everything the sphere use to always be against and now she is everything it stands for.

    I am also fascinated by the number of men who continue to call this just a catfight, yeah brush it off, just look the other way. Is it any wonder certain politicians get elected. SSM would make a great one.
    It comes down to this–if I criticize women as a whole, I get accused of making sweeping generalizations, NAWALT. If I criticize woman individually, I get accused of a catfight.

  • “Everything she says is taken as gospel while me, the person who’s been blogging for nearly half-a-decade about this shit, is dismissed as just grasping for attention.”

    Yes. I got the attention whore label a few times for my RPW post, but gee lets see…I’m not the one using titillating sex talk, posting photos of myself, or posting and tweeting everyday.

  • @lgrobins

    She didn’t quit courtesy of the support from her bloggers who valued her work and encouraged her to hang tight despite the doxxIng attempt. I think we referenced some scripture passages about spiritual war to encourage her to continue.

  • in late 2011 I made the joke on Twitter: “Manosphere? It sounds like a New Orleans gay bar.” Several dozen of my “manosphere” followers unfollowed me, and a couple of major manosphere writers removed their reviews of my work on Amazon. A now defunct major Manosphere website declared me a “judas” and a website with the fabulous mature name “Hall of Manly Excellence” called me a “bitter loser.”

    Can I say that I hated the Manosphere before it was cool to hate the Manosphere?

  • At the risk of associating with a female….see this comment and the whole thread at julian’s…..finally someone who has some common sense and does their own research.

    Butterfly Flower on April 16, 2014 at 7:59 am

    So I read Chris’s latest blogpost at Dark Brightness.

    It sounds like they’re still trying to argue that Lena and Laura sinisterly doxxed SSM and her family for the “evulz”.

    The only proof they offer is Matt Forney is a liberal….?

    I find it far more likely GOMI/FJ/Manboobz doxxed SSM and initiated the parody blogs. Since said sites haven outright taken credit for doing so in the past and do not attempt to withhold their disdain for SSM.

    Also, Occam’s Razor. Two consistent female bloggers who have been around the sphere for years suddenly turning out to be FJ/MB/GOMI trolls sent on an undercover mission to discredit SSM? *facepalm*

  • How are women ever suppose to hold each other accountable, police the herd, if every dispute is written off as a catfight? I truly am interested in discussing this.

    And look at richard at that thread blindly falling for the “raising other kids” story but then at end says assuming its true. yeah…assuming! What a display of men who can’t let go of their fantasy wives.

  • Another comment from julian’s site—

    Butterfly Flower on April 17, 2014 at 12:18 am

    So I Googled Sunshine Mary and FJ and found evidence she was doxxed by FJ and GOMI over a year ago – including a forum post where they discussed sharing links to her social network accounts!

    I can email you the search results if you want; I mean its just a simple Google search so it won’t be hard for you to do it yourself if you were to bother to try. I’m not sure why anyone else (aside from Matt) bothered to Google to see if Lena’s statements had any credit.

    Are you sure Matt was emailed by Laura (Lena doesn’t run a blog anymore) because if he had read GOMI or FJ he could have just come across the doxxing information himself.

    I’m still curious to what Lena did that makes everyone automatically think she is a Feminist Liberal FJ-er in leagues with Satan.

  • Laura, since you’ve linked to comments that I’ve made, I’ve now been accused of being a part of this and collaborating with you, Lena, and Matt. I’ve started receiving vicious hatemail from SSM’s supporters.

    Matt, could you clear up that I I wasn’t a part-of this post? I didn’t even know who you were until the other day!

    I can’t say I had a high opinion of SSM (for an allegedly devout Christian her advice wasn’t always compatible with scripture). But I wasn’t involved in any of this.

  • Clyde

    \I’ve had fellow Christians…’

    Christianity sucks dude.

  • ETX: You win the comment thread.

  • Clyde

    ” I made the joke on Twitter: “Manosphere? It sounds like a New Orleans gay bar.” Several dozen of my “manosphere” followers unfollowed me, and a couple of major manosphere writers removed their reviews of my work on Amazon.”

    Just like being blacklisted!

  • BF, I truly apologize, I should have asked first. Maybe best for Matt to delete them. You made some very valid points that needed expressed from a disinterested party. If you are getting these emails doesn’t that just say anything. if there is the slightest hint you are not full fledged on ssm side this is what happens.

    To ssm’s tribe. please keep BF out of this and direct all your fury at me.

  • Clyde

    Suck my cock.

  • Clyde, you suck.

    And you’re a rude asshole, too.

  • SSM’s supporters are sending BF vicious hatemail?

    How come I haven’t received any; I feel so left out…

    All I’ve gotten is uncharitable accusations and shaming and guilt-tripping attempts…

  • Clyde

    A gentleman knows when he’s being rude conservative ballicker.

  • Forget about the death of the Manosphere; what about the death of Christianity. The reactions to this post (from alleged Christians) are no different to the reactions to the infamous evangelist Tony Anthony being outed as a fraud. He claimed to have been a 3 time world champion of “kung-fu” and former hitman. A lot of his testimonies were suspiciously similar to the plots of Bruce Lee movies.

    When a member of Anthony’s ministry’s board became suspicious and tried to verify the claims Anthony made, he was shunned by his fellow board members. He conducted his own investigation and found a significant amount of evidence that proved Anthony was a con man.

    Despite all of the evidence pointing to Anthony being a total fraud, to this day Christians are still willing to defend Anthony. The unfortunate thing is, the Tony Anthony-affair is often discussed by Atheists. “Christianity is full of liars so obviously the Bible must be full of lies/advocate lying/encourage fraud”.

    As a Christian who struggles with her faith on a daily basis, I know it can only take a few interactions with false-convert hypocrites to make someone want to leave Christianity for good. So said behavior certainly shouldn’t be ignored by fellow Christians!

    BF, I truly apologize, I should have asked first. Maybe best for Matt to delete them. You made some very valid points that needed expressed from a disinterested party. If you are getting these emails doesn’t that just say anything. if there is the slightest hint you are not full fledged on ssm side this is what happens.

    To ssm’s tribe. please keep BF out of this and direct all your fury at me.

    As a Christian, I am saddened by the emails I’ve received. One idiot even linked my liver failure to God punishing me for collaborating with Lena and Laura to jealously attack SSM (Um, I don’t even have any of their emails. Also I’m not jealous of SSM, like at all.)

  • RichardP

    @lgrobbins: “And look at richard at that thread blindly falling for the “raising other kids” story …”

    Interesting. You said “Blindly falling for” – and yet I said “assuming that this is true”. Can you explain in a few words the point I was making with that post (rhetorical question)?

    Hint: I was responding to those upthread who wondered if SSM was quitting because folks were criticizing her. My last two sentences summarize the point of my post. “From what I see, assuming that it is true, it is not herself that she is trying to protect. Mother bear, and all.”

    Translation: It doesn’t make sense to me that she would be quitting because her feelings have been hurt. But, if she is quitting to lessen the likelihood that folks might come after the kids in her care, that does make sense to me.

    I don’t think I said anywhere in that post that I know what the truth is. But – if you have proof that she is actually not taking care of three children who are not hers biologically, I and quite a few others would be interested in seeing / hearing that proof. Otherwise …

    And, as an aside and being totally serious, lg – I’ve read all of your comments here, and I’m still not certain of what your (valid) charge against SSM is. I say this, not to start a discussion, but to give you a heads up that others may be equally uncertain of your point(s). I don’t consider being vague or misleading about details of one’s private life to be a valid charge of defect in a public space where it is ideas that are the focus of attention, not personal details.

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  • Thank you for reviewing my books, Matt, even though I was an Enemy of the State, and congratulations on swallowing the red pill about swallowing the red pill.

  • William

    I wouldn’t latch myself to a group or cause that lives and operates on the internet.
    There’s to many people with different ideas and viewpoints to get a feel on what the Manosphere is about anyway.
    Whats happening now will continue to happen cause it’s the internet, we’re worlds away with only the info online to tell us who people are.

    I’ve cut down on the content i read cause alot of whats out is ridiculous

    I have a hard time telling whose apart of the Manosphere and whose a Feminist cause its all negative, doom and gloom, us against the world.
    It’s not hard to imagine some men who’ve read articles online now have worse view of woman and the world.
    “Hate Masturbate” is a great term, seriously a feminist said something outrageous but why most me always hear about it ?

    I remember years ago when i first heard of feminist/manosphere i spent 3 hours reading feminist articles getting more angry by the minute.
    If i could go back in time i’d kick my ass for reading every article on what some dumb chick said.

  • Eric

    William: “There’s to many people with different ideas and viewpoints to get a feel on what the Manosphere is about anyway.”

    The different ideas and viewpoints is what it’s about. Galt’s description fits best: “The Manosphere is a clearinghouse for TRUTH.” aka “The Red Pill.”

    Dictionary def: A clearinghouse is a central agency for the collection and distribution of materials, information, etc.

    The variety of different ideas and viewpoints is a main feature, not a flaw. You’re supposed to sift through the diverse content, adapt the pieces that make sense for you, note the rest, and hopefully pay it forward by adding content to the clearinghouse from your smarts and experience.

  • I’d say that this may be a good learning experience. What has just transpired was a great opportunity to apply the red pill. I’d say it is a trial sent by fate to see if the manosphere practices what it preaches and so far a significant portion has failed.

    Are you the living embodiment of what you preach or are you like a fatty talking about the dangers of junk food and lack of exercise?

  • edwin calais

    It is actually kind of interesting to watch a movement “evolve.” If you watch it closely enough, and over a long enough period of time, you can probably learn more about society and humanity than by actually reading the intended content of the websites/movement itself.

    I learned more about women by watching the MRM/MGTOW/Manosphere sprout, evolve, and devolve, over and over again, than by actually reading any posts in said “movements.” Sure, sure, lots of people had put it into words, but words are just that, words. Experience teaches you that a lot of people are hot air. Lot’s of diehard “misogynists” are still pretty willing to white-knight for their special blog groupies, and men are sold out at a dime a dozen every day, right in front our eyes.

    “Blog-societies” are, therefore, one of the best ways (I have found) to have a sample group to do your own personal studies with.

    Watch, as the women show up, and watch how it evolves over a few months or a year.

    Lol! I seen some reference to Alte further up. This woman is simply the same story over and over. When B&G (Black & German, aka Alte) first showed up, it was all Traditional Catholic Wife, and blah blah blah, and my cooking is so good, and blah blah blah, and my children pray before they go to bed, and blah blah blah, and I submit to my husband, and when he wants a blowjob, I read my Bible, thank the Lord for his insights, and sink to my knees to submit to the hard pink baloney pole as I was commanded… and I always swallow. He deserves it! (Which, by the way, is a little over the top to begin with – just swallow because you like the goo, woman! We’ve all read the studies!)

    Then, a month later, come the stories about how she was a “man-killer” back in her twenties, until she decided to “settle down” at around the age of 28. (Hmmm. It just seemed the right thing to do at the time?)

    And then come the stories about when her and her girlfriend were out at a party and got “date-raped” by these two guys… but because we were red-pill chicks, we didn’t report them… even though we coulda! We’re coolz, ya see! But I was still raped! Rayyyyped! (In other words, you guys really are big meanies, I’m just a softie about your little “foibles.”)

    And then come the questions from men who see the big picture… “Does your husband know you spend 5 hours a day talking to, basically, only men on the internet? And how do you find time to bake bread, grow a garden, raise children, volunteer for the church, and give your husband massages every night after his ‘welcome home from work blowjob?'”

    “Well, I’m just trying to restore ‘traditional’ Christianity!”

    Then why do I know what kind of panties you are wearing today?

    “That was just innocent conversation… and I’m not trying to talk to men anyways!”

    And yet, 90% of your audience is, wait for it, MEN. Didn’t you realize that?

    “Not ALL of my readers are male. Kathy reads my blog too!”

    Did you tell your girlfriends you are wearing see-thru panties today? Why not? And why did you tell it to the men?

    THEN, some “traditional” Christian man, who spanks his wife (online, at least), barges in to protect these paragons of virtue, and threaten you all with an ass-beating if you don’t read the word of the Lord more closely, as he himself does… even though he’s married to another, and shouldn’t be white-knighting for someone else’s wife…

    And don’t forget, he isn’t an alpha male. Nope! He’s a Sigma (smegma) male! Which is even better. Not only that, he has turned down a Mensa membership three times, because they only require a 132IQ while Mr. Smegma has a 156 IQ, which is at least equal to Einstein! (Aside from Alpha’s & Smegmas, the most common “leaders” I see in the MRM are those who took an online IQ test and are self declared geniuses. Look for them. They are every fricking where! And usually writing to you, no less!)

    And then Kathy comes running back in, protecting the sisterhood, erm, herd, and then come the other cows behind her, stampeding in to protect the wounded cow, regardless of her actions.

    Then the men start siding with their individual favourite fantasy woman inside of that panicked herd…

    …And then the whole fucking shebang blows the fuck up and starts from scratch again.

    Much like the human history of creating civilizations!

    Wheee! Isn’t repeating ourselves over and over so much fun? I mean FUN? Like, FUN!!!??!! I mean, this is really fun!

    Once you’ve seen it a couple times though, it loses its punch, like any other re-run on the TV.

    Having women help with the manosphere is like having a five year old child help you put up wallpaper… NO THANKS!

    And the rub is, I don’t even think they consciously know what they are doing. This is just the way the average woman walks through life, completely oblivious to the consequences of her own actions, the same way they’ve always been walking through life since the beginning of time.

    Feminism isn’t a movement.

    It’s a condition that naturally affects over half the human population – so long as it is allowed to do so.

  • Gee I do wonder that men(including myself) somehow has psychological weaknesses that is exploitable by women. I’d say perhaps as much as feminism is a problem that if a mirror is applied to oneself we would have to kick ourselves constantly to be aware of our weaknesses and go about rectifying them or avoiding situations where it can be exploited.

    In both recent history and in ancient history we allow ourselves to listen to the sweet voice of women to our own detriment. As it is with our primodial myth of adam and eve. When adam listened to his wife rather than god and sinned with her damning the entire human race. We listened to the sweet voices of sirens and now has to live in the misery of being tossed by the eas of chaos. Will we ever learn or are we gonna repeat the old drama which is as old. As the human race itself?

  • @edwin calasis

    This old timer MGTOW has it right he saw this a long time ago:

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  • Will S.

    The fact of the matter is, even women who themselves aren’t especially ‘drama queen’-tendency-prone, ‘Team Woman’ types, simply by their very presence, engender chaos, as the Herd aligns against them – and men end up taking sides, as Edwin says. I can only think of one, just one, female commenter at our blog who has never been involved in any of the asinine high school drama that all the rest, whether intentionally or inadvertently, have ended up engendering or gotten sucked into. She has figured out how to stay out of trouble, and trouble hasn’t found her, yet.

  • Since gossip and deceit do so much damage there should be penalties for this predominantly female vice. As wanton physical violence is punishable by jail so should a similar treatment be given to gossip and other female vices that entails abuse of the vast social power that women possess as it is with the abuse of male physical power. Male power acts not only as the sledgehammer that builds but also to smash into pieces what is built. With female power perhaps it glues and strengthens the structure but also to corrode from within. Both are forces that can destroy yet so far only the sledgehammer that is prevented from destruction. The hidden insidious corrosive nature of the destructive feminine has not be dealt with and has so far rotted the manosphere from within.

  • Et tu, Jim?

    I was going to post this on his blog seeing as he’s one of the few NRx/DE thinkers I still respect, but I realized it’s a waste. The Sirens have won. The soul of the Dark Enlightenment has been irreversibly corrupted. Sunshine continues to spin ridiculous lies and fabrications and these oh-so-manly patriarchs who talk of masculine dominance and feudalism fall to her knees. Edwin got it right upthread.

    Note how all of them are focusing on the “doxing” (which, as Butterfly Flower has pointed out, is bogus seeing as Sunshine’s personal information had already been publicized on Free Jinger, GOMI and other anti-fundie forums a year ago; all I did was bring it to the DE’s attention) and not on her documented attempt to have one of her critics’ children seized by CPS. Don’t give me some Pharisaical “oh, it wasn’t really a threat” nonsense; the fact that she would even think of doing something like that shows what kind of person she is. If Sunshine were a liar, that would be one thing: it’s the fact that she’s a liar and has threatened to harm her critics that makes her dangerous.

    Same thing with the crapola about how I “doxed” her daughter. GOMI/Free Jinger did that a year ago as well. And if Sunshine were truly concerned for her family’s safety, she’d have deleted her blog and gotten off the Internet already. The fact that she’s still prevaricating to her castrati NRx audience shows that all she cares about is getting attention.

    Be advised that I will probably be closing comments on this post either tomorrow or over the weekend. As far as I’m concerned, it’s a done issue. I said I was turning my back on the manosphere/NRx/DE and I mean it; I’m not going to be like those losers who purport to quit the Internet but keep coming back to snipe at people from the sidelines. Sunshine and Danny can have it as far as I’m concerned. Maybe when she finally gets someone arrested over a false accusation or something, the NRx faggots will realize what a monster they let into their midst. Of course, by then it’ll be too late.

    Laura (re: Dalrock’s stepping away): it wouldn’t shock me if he were involved in this. My friend, who I mentioned in the post as constantly making excuses for Sunshine, actually convinced her to delete her blog last week (the “Continued charity and also a break” post) and in the process showed her the material I dug up. Again, I won’t name him because I consider him a friend, but Sunshine tooled him and went back on her word. Had she just shut up and gone away quietly, I probably wouldn’t have written this post at all.

  • RichardP

    @Matt Forney: “Note how all of them are focusing on the “doxing” … and not on her documented ATTEMPT to have one of her critics’ children seized by CPS.”

    Matt – did you mean to say “threat” rather than “attempt”?

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  • I stop reading the manosphere for a little while and I come back and its devolved into a catfight. It makes me glad I left. I am sad to see the demise of it though. If it wasn’t for what I learnt here I would still be the same loser I was. For what its with, you are not a founder of the manosphere though you were a pinnacle figure in its heyday. The manosphere proceeded Roissy and has its origins in writers such as Pook (whom I consider the most important writer for young men to read) on pick up boards and MRA forums. When you began blogging was about the time Roissy began hitting his stride along with other influential figures. It was your linkage posts that bought all the disparate writers together. I am afraid that the manosphere jumped the shark over a year ago, not long after I began blogging. When I launched my blog I had second thoughts. It doesn’t matter. The manosphere may be dead but the salient points have pervaded into society’s consciousness.

  • Eric

    Tom White: “I stop reading the manosphere for a little while and I come back and its devolved into a catfight.”

    Not all of the Manosphere. Just a few of the bloggers, albeit ones with relatively more name recognition. Tiffs happen. It’s strange that this tiff is being portrayed as a judgement on the Manosphere when it doesn’t even resonate throughout the Manosphere. Maybe if Roissy in DC, Dalrock, and Pook (before my time) had feuded back in the day, that might have evolved into a polarizing battle royal. But not this. This is just an oddly vitriolic tiff involving a few bloggers, not the temperature of the whole Manosphere.

  • WG

    SSM and her odious white knight beta orbiters are discussing Matt at this blog:

  • JackBlack23

    @edwin calais

    “And the rub is, I don’t even think they consciously know what they are doing. This is just the way the average woman walks through life, completely oblivious to the consequences of her own actions, the same way they’ve always been walking through life since the beginning of time.”

    Well said. Also, you should check out the link provided by infowarrior1 … a young whippersnapper like you might learn a thing or two from that old-timer MGTOW, I know I certainly did! :-)

  • pats

    “SSM and her odious white knight beta orbiters are discussing Matt at this blog:”

    Already linked. Do you even read bro?

  • Actually, here’s something I forgot (in regards to Jim Donald and his readers hiding behind Sunshine Thiry’s skirt):

    Jim Donald has admitted on his blog in the past that he’s in an unhappy marriage and that his wife effectively wears the pants (paraphrasing, but these are the sentiments of his comments). In other words, he’s another weak man who has latched onto Sunshine Thiry as a surrogate wife, like a baby mewling for his momma’s breast.

    That is the Dark Enlightenment right there: a bunch of D&D nerds who can’t walk the walk. They screech about being “Fathers of Families” while working low-paid nursing jobs. They screech about the necessity of keeping women under control when their wives carry their balls around in their purses. They imagine that come the revolution, they’ll be the ones in charge, when in fact they’ll be the same pathetic losers they are now.

    Sorry kids, but if you’re a failure now, you’ll be a failure no matter how society is organized. The problem isn’t the Jews, the Cathedral, or the evil wimmenz: it’s you.

  • Eric

    Matt Forney: “The problem isn’t the Jews, the Cathedral, or the evil wimmenz: it’s you.”

    The Manosphere is broad, diverse, and at some points at odds with each other, but the one common thread and core value of the Manosphere is positive masculinity – self-empowerment with the red pill. While it makes sense that social issues are folded into the process because we live in a social context, not in isolated vacuum, the primary mission is improving our own lives and helping each other fraternally and paternalistically as men. We’re trying to teach ourselves the things that fathers, uncles, and men of the tribe used to teach boys of the tribe. Any outgrowth of a social movement from the core function, while organic, is derivative. To maintain a sense of priorities, it helps to remind ourselves which aspect of what we’re doing is the core value, which aspect is the secondary effect, and which aspects are ancillary.

  • RichardP

    @Matt: “…while working low-paid nursing jobs.”

    In 2012, 87% of the people (not households) in the U.S. made less than $75,000. The average wage of a registered nurse for 2011 was about 69,000. I’m sure you’ve already seen what Philip earns (since it is public information), and where that places him in terms of that 87% cut-off. Low-paid nursing jobs indeed.

  • @matt

    At what post did you read that jim was in a unhappy marriage?

  • infowarrior: It was in the comments to one of his posts on game/PUAs. I can’t remember which one, but I’m Googling around for it.

  • The problem, at root, is that any men are still listening to acknowleged (or alleged) women who are injecting themselves into our conversations. Turning cartwheels, wearing bikinis. Taking selfies. Spreading drama. Gossiping.

    Stop it. I’m serious. Stop it, or I’ll bury you alive in a box.

    The appropriate response to all of these women is, “Shut up. Man talk.” These women have nothing to gain but attention.

    The women worth listening to are those you know personally: mothers who have raised successful children, sisters who married well, wives who submit.

    Assume that every woman speaking to men in public is a harlot, and you won’t go far wrong.

  • Found one of the quotes from Jim Donald regarding his marriage:

    She thinks that wives should obey their husbands, except, of course, that she frequently does not obey her husband.

    In other words, he’s another “man” who huffs and puffs on the Internet to cover up for his flaccidity. I’m sure Sunshine has told him on numerous occasions how much she “loves” and “respects” him, two things he doesn’t get from his actual wife. All the Dork Enlightenment bloggers siding with her are probably the same way.

    Stick to talking about the Cathedral, Jim; your spinelessness is showing.

  • Will S.

    My default tendency these days is to assume everyone who goes on and on about how wonderful their marriage is in massive denial, and is simply trying to convince themselves that their marriage really is great, when in reality there are problems. I’ve heard of far too many cases of that kind of thing happening to assume otherwise, unless I have specific reason to.

    Those who really are very happy and satisfied surely don’t have any need to share that with the world. Those who most loudly proclaim how happy they are surely doth protesteth too much, as Shakespeare would say…

  • baguazhang

    Pointless drama/civil warring.

    I’m more concerned with the effect on the manosphere as it becomes more mainstream. Looking at RoK, it sometimes feels like a mirror of a feminist site. Irrational blaming of society/women/Jews for all their problems, combined with weird defeatist self-imposed isolationists, various sorts of hamstering and somehow a sneaking sense of political correctness AND paranoid hate at the same time.

    It doesn’t quite have the edge it did. We need to go back to the incisive, fuck-your-feelings realtalk.

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  • RichardP

    Matt, I did not know you existed until I followed a link to this page a couple of days ago. So my impression of you is entirely from this page. After discovering this page, I’ve read elsewhere that some folks think highly of your writing, and others think you are about age 25.

    This statement is true for all of us: “We don’t respond to ‘what is’. We respond to ‘what is perceived’.” From what I read here, your ability to perceive seems to be in its early stages of development. That would be expected if you are indeed around age 25. I expect that by age 50 your ability to perceive will be much more developed and complex.

    In particular, I’m thinking of your analysis of Jim Donald on April 18 at 10:42 above in response to this quote from him: “She thinks that wives should obey their husbands, except, of course, that she frequently does not obey her husband”. Your response to that comment suggest to me that you are not married, or at least not married long. Your response tells me that you have not yet discovered the truth that no man can force another to obey. If you think one man can force another to obey, it is only because you are still young yet and inexperienced. Men often choose to die rather than submit their will to another. That shows the truth of it. We read in Genesis that a wife was created to be a help, proper for her husband (‘meet’ = ‘fitting or proper’ in Old English). We get a restatement of that truth in the New Testament statement that wives should submit to their husbands (which is what being a proper help is all about). Nowhere in the Bible do we find a command that men are to force their wives to help them or submit to them. When you learn more about the business place you will learn a truth that also applies to husband / wife reality – one can lead, but that doesn’t mean anyone will follow. The followership comes from the willing choice of the follower. In business, as in marriage, one is not free to kill the folks who won’t follow. All one can do is lead, and replace those who won’t follow (maybe not free to do that in marriage, depending on one’s theological viewpoint).

    All of which leads me to interpret Jim Donald’s statement in view of the reality I just stated. He was stating a fact: “in spite of her saying she believes that wives should obey their husbands, she often doesn’t obey hers”. I would speculate that this statement is true of everyone: we do not always abide by what we claim to believe. That is why the young are often dogmatic and the old often are not. The old have learned that everyone who possesses a belly button needs to be given at least a 10% margin for error. Because the error will always come.

    Matt – if error has not yet come to you, I would guess it is only because you are young. I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that the “interpretations” you have given above are simply because you are young and your ability to perceive things has not been matured by exposure to the realitys of life. If you are not young, and if you are actually more knowledgeable about life than you imply above, then I point you to the idea that your “sins” will be forgiven you in the same measure that you forgive the “sins” of others.

  • I tend to think the hardcore MRA’s learned what they needed to learn and moved on to harder subjects, Neoreaction, countereconomics, political deconstruction, and actually learning how macroconsumerism works… either that, or they moved into the hills with a gun collection or got involved in dominance.
    You gotta hand it to the MRA’s, they did a good job, for a while, of stripping out the bullshit and getting back into a basic understanding of female psychology, although the PUA’s were a lot more successful in figuring out the real rules to the hyperliberal progressives than the conservatives were.
    but there comes a point where simply bitching about the latest egregious excesses of individual feminists must take a back seat to a deeper understanding of the entire framework of which they are simply a small and somewhat useless tool.

    You can either abandon it altogether, or deal with the head pain of going deeper into the rabbit hole… and most people won’t venture too deeply, because at each step of deconstruction it grows more and more difficult to come up with easy understandings or simple fixes.

    Me, I am more interested in finding out what lies at the other end of the tunnel. I do not blame those who decide to leave the hole, though… it’s not easy being called a tinfoil hatter, racist, bigot, sexist, antisemite, mysogynist, fanatic, cultist, heretic, or any of a thousand other names for those who refuse to toe the line and accept revisionist history…

    I’d rather spend my life digging out uncomfortable truths than accept convenient lies… and frankly, abuse aside, uncovering reality is fucking fun.

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  • Jim

    “Yes, it’s Vanessa, alias Alte / Cecilia / ButterflySquash / Black&German, blogging again!”

    I knew she couldn’t stay away. In my favorite Vanessa post, when her husband took her out for her birthday, she cried in the bathroom because none of the other men were checking her out. Now that’s a traddie. At least she moved back to Germany.

  • I guess that’s what you get in a mostly anonymous community. It’s good that things hit the fan though…I guess it takes in-person meet ups to bring the walls down. Is there a new term for this sort of thing in the DSM? Online attention seeking disorder?

  • pb

    lgrobins, you have made your blog private? Will you continue to blog, and is it available for ‘subscribers’?

  • Man, reading this just makes me sorta re-think about the people that produce the content in the ‘sphere. Sure I had my doubts about Danny already, but I wonder who else there is that’s in that same rubric. The ‘sphere just seems like a pretty corrupt place at the moment.

  • Will S.

    Check out the tone of this individual.

    Reminds me of somebody that I used to know; someone who was all bark and no bite, like a high-strung yappy little lapdog. One who always got into blog fights, especially white-knighting on behalf of his ‘lady’ (a certain woman who always liked to start fights, wherever she went in the manosphere), and especially over and against a couple that ‘lady’ despised, the female half of which to whom she still sends hate-emails…

    Those of you were around back in those days will know whom I am referring to; no need for me to give them the satisfaction of naming them.

    I know they’ll see this:

    I know who you are, twit.

    And what you are. You are a liar, alternately pretending to be Christian (as you used to claim to be), then not Christian (as on your new blog with one post), as it suits you; I doubt you really believe in anything, except yourself.

    You twist other people’s words to try to win an argument, as you did mine.

    Glass houses, stones, etc. You have little reason to be judgmental against others, when you’re far from blameless yourself.

  • Will S.

    Some defender, eh?

    I’d be wincing if I had him in my corner.

  • 7man

    @Will S.

    In the reference above, is the ‘lady’ more than twice the age of the white knight?

  • Moreover, given the anti-Christian language he employed (comments like “dead Jew on a stick”), that must be especially embarrassing to have such as one’s champion – though given the moralism visible elsewhere in the same post, there seems to be a rather schizoid mentality at work, not unlike being a married Christian woman yet playing internet footsie with some apparent internet Casanova who is decidedly NOT Christian (and, as it turns out, a fraud, too).

  • @ 7man: Yeah, and she’s married.

  • gu

    This is what I love about this site: it’s simple, point-and-shoot truth-telling.

    There is absolutely ZERO proof that manosphere commenters get laid. It is a phantasy that they make up so he can rationalize their clinical need to bitch about the world. I don’t blame anyone for shitting on white knights defending SSM. But the picture in the header showcases how delusional I have become.

    I’m sure this won’t blow your mind Matt, but not everyone is awesome like you are. What you are doing is dissociating yourself from people you find despicable. Commenting on the wretchedness of the “Cathedral” is a waste of time because there’s nothing any of us can do about it.

    the too long, didn’t read version: there is literally nothing that separates me from the average manosphere commenter. I’m a “whiny anti feminist” much like they are. The difference is I get pleasure out of bitching about what a big meanie you are. (not that there’s anything wrong with that) But there are some that take it too far and write moronic comments for the sake of writing moronic comments. Then you have commenters like that dude who Will S. linked to who get into hysterical crying fits because their favorite fantasy online wife got exposed.

    It actually saddens me that I am incapable of expressing myself better on this topic, but you should be getting the gist now.

    I will go choke now.

    [CensorBot sez: Please do.]

  • hj

    “Irrational blaming of society/women/Jews for all their problems,”

    14/88 WHITE POWER!

    [CensorBot sez: Yadda yadda yadda.]

  • Will S., do we have any evidence that he isn’t actually an Israeli college student paid to spread strife? I didn’t interact with him nearly as much as y’all did.

  • Will S.

    Hey Matthew; maybe not, but by the same token, we also don’t have any conclusive, definitive proof that he is that, either. :)

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