Matt Forney
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marriage

Marriage? Children? Just Don’t Do It

marriage

This is a guest post by John Saxon.

Having worked in family law and civil litigation all my life, and after going through divorce myself—with a family of seven children—my advice to young men today is the same as that which I gave my seven sons: don’t marry, or live in de facto relationships. Just. Don’t. Don’t do this even with the alleged use of the safety net of prenuptial agreements, which I have found to be the equivalent of condoms: there will still be legal loopholes and technicalities and strategies for getting around them. Once in a while a swimmer will get through, and you will be fucked. However, I am not offering legal advice in this article—which would be foolish due to differences across jurisdictions—but red pill grandfatherly advice based on experience. And, of course, not all of my sons have listened to their crazy old man: hence grandchildren, but also the first divorce of my next generation.

Why should the topic of marriage and long term relationships be raised before a generation of internet/IT literate young men who are presumably savvy about women and the oppressive system which men now live under? The reason is that usually in their mid-thirties, men often get the biological urge to see their seed not merely sprayed over vaginal walls, but sown. Thoughts of having children—primarily a son to carry on one’s line—begin to irrationally seep into the mind, like water through a box gutter, slowly dripping onto your important documents. And then, before you know it, you have impregnated someone who will be certain to give you a life time of misery, at best. It happened to me.

Roosh, whom we all know and admire—someone whom I would be proud to have as a son—has expressed the desire to get married and start a family if he can find a suitable woman, and be an “Alpha Provider.” As an intelligent guy, he has given a number of criteria which any potential future mother of your child should meet, as the title of this article indicates: “The Future Mother of Your Child Should be a Virgin Who Believes in God.”

Virginity is essential for the sociological reason that women having more than one premarital relationship have an increased rate of divorce. See J. Teachman’s article “Premarital Sex, Premarital Cohabitation, and the Risk of Subsequent Marital Dissolution Among Women” in the Journal of Marriage and Family, vol. 65, 2003, pp. 444-455. But more important that this are biological and genetic reasons, namely that a woman’s body incorporates DNA form the semen of her casual sex partners. Genetic material is also exchanged through semen-borne noncoding RNA and seminal proteins (see A. Crean et al., “Revisiting Telegony: Offspring Inherit an Acquired Characteristic of their Mother’s Previous Mate,” Ecology Letters, vol. 17, 2014, pp. 1545-1552). There may also be spermatozoa-somatic cell fusion, that is, fusion of sperm and female body cells (see S. V. Brodsky and I. Ivanov, “Spermatozoa-Somatic Cell Fusion: A Mechanism for Microchimerism Formation,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, vol. 259, 2009, pp. 190-192). The work of Chinese biologist Y.S. Liu, has gone a long way to rehabilitating Aristotle’s theory of telegony, the idea that offspring can inherit the characteristics of a female’s previous mating partners (see Y.S. Liu, “Circulating Nucleic Acids and Darwin’s Gemmules,” Expert Opinion on Biological Therapy, vol. 12, 2012, [sup], S225-S226).

The conclusion to be drawn here is that women who are spittoons for cum are likely to become cucks to themselves, incorporating past genetic material into their genome, as well making any husband a cuck as well.  Finding a virgin for a potential wife will be difficult, but not impossible, and will usually involve searching for a woman with a traditional religious background. At worst, you could abandon Western civilization and go full Muslim. That would have the added bonus of likely producing a woman who would want to be a stay-at-home mother, as well as believing in God. God can keep His eye on her, while you work your ass off… or so the fairy tale goes. And don’t worry about saving Western civilization; nobody else is.

Location is an important consideration for the success of marriage, with factors to consider such as the divorce rate of the country, the nature of divorce and custody laws—and how anti-male they are—the country’s views on the traditional family, whether the country has atheistic/multicultural values or traditional spiritual values, and what degenerate cultural forces are operating to destroy the family. Roosh rightly concluded that it is unlikely that an alpha provider can successfully establish his family in the West.

Long before Roosh, St. Jerome (A.D. 347-420), in Epistola adversus Jovinianum (Letter Against Jovinian) and later, Bartolomeo Scala (1430-1497), a politician and administrator in the Florentine Republic, in his letter to Piero de Medici, “Whether a Wise Man Should Marry” (1457-1459), reached the same conclusion. They both followed Theophrastus (B.C. 371-287), Aristotle’s successor at the Lyceum, who in his book Liber Aureolus de Nuptiis (The Golden Book of Marriage), gave four conditions for marriage: (1) the woman should be beautiful; (2) the woman should be of good character; (3) she should come from a good family and (4) the man should be in good health. St. Jerome and Scala, following Theophrastus, believed that these conditions would be rarely met; beauty quickly fades and the woman becomes a bush pig; good character is often hard to decide when women and their families engage in deception to off-load a burdensome daughter, and likewise for the character of a family. The idea that children will carry on one’s name after death—giving one a symbolic immortality—is sheer nonsense, and it is more likely that your children will forget you once they have their claws on the estate, and if they remember you at all, they will piss on your grave. Children were seen even then as no comfort in old age, and today, they cannot be found to help when you need it, after a lifetime of support and up to $250,000 (or more) spent on the little darlings from cradle to university. Children are more pain than joy; a liability, not an asset, and not a rational reason for marriage.

This conclusion is in agreement with other authorities. A Pew Research Center poll of men and women aged 18-34 found that the percentage of respondents saying that a successful marriage is the most important thing to them for women rose from 28 to 37 percent from 1997 to 2013, and for men dropped from 35 to 29 percent over the same period. In her article “The War on Men,” Suzanne Venker identified even then that feminism has created a culture hostile to men, and has destroyed the traditional role of men as breadwinner, provider and protector. The title of Hanna Rosin’s book The End of Men and the Rise of Women sums it all up.

Until some sort of collapse of the present system occurs—which will allow sanity to be restored—expect more of the same. Consequently, attempting to build a traditional family in Western society will be a loser’s game. The odds of success are greatly against you. Thus, many men will seek to go to countries less culturally degenerate than say the United States. Eastern Europe is apparently fast catching up on the West, but many parts of southeast Asia and South America are options, if your business arrangements will allow it. I have already mentioned the Muslim option. If one needs to stay in the West for business or personal reasons, there is always game, satisfying at least one’s sexual urges through the practice of using psychology and strategy to out-fox the vixen. Game is an essential survival package for all men, but it too has its limits. Unless you have money to burn, and burn it at will, as you get older, the number of trophy pussies that you can hunt down and nail to your wall will diminish. So, too, will their quality. One day you will find yourself a horny, in-shape 60+ year-old, with only women looking almost as bad as Hillary Clinton to fuck. It’s an unpleasant thought, and even worse when you are there.

Hence the merits of prostitution, or what one would prefer, the art of the courtesan: not your cheap street-corner needle-poxed whore, but a sophisticated sexual comforter, best seen in the world of elite prostitution in eighteenth century Paris, the demi-monde (Nina Kushner, Erotic Exchanges). Such a woman would be the equivalent of the Japanese Geisha. The top quality call girl is not a victim, and usually enters the sex industry just to make money.  If they are being fucked anyway by gamers, then why not make some money? They usually love sex, and often cum for real with clients, or maybe after being worked up by a number of clients. The image of the abused hooker applies to only a minority of prostitutes, as Miriam Weeks pointed out in an article in Rolling Stone. Further, prostitution abuse is largely a product of criminalization and making the activity an underground activity. Regulation can make the activity safer for sex workers, as the example of the Netherlands illustrates.

If casual sex is acceptable, then, it has been argued, so is prostitution (see O. M. Moen, “Is Prostitution Harmful?” Journal of Medical Ethics, vol. 40, 2014, pp. 73-81). It is insane that a woman can bang half a suburb, but if a man leaves a few bits of colored paper after the deed, he—and she—are criminals. Prostitution is decriminalized in my jurisdiction, but is not in most of the United States, so beware of your local laws and exercise common sense and good judgment.

It has been argued by feminists that marriage is just a legal form of prostitution, and Relampago Furioso has given a neomasculine take on this as well. Marriage has always been based on economic exchange: sex for security. From this perspective, there is nothing wrong at all, if it is legal, to seek out sexual comfort from a pro, rather than some rank amateur.

Back in the early 1980’s, I was training at a power-lifting gym. I met a large, old tattooed lifter, about 54 years old then. He traveled the country on his motorbike, surviving by counting cards in blackjack games in various casinos. He was really good at this. During the day he went to various gyms to train, and at night he cleaned himself up and went to the casino, to take a small amount of cash, and then leave. He would save up money for banging call girls. He laughed at relationships: “I don’t need love, but I do need to fuck!” Once he had been a farmer, but had lost it all in a divorce. He had kids, but they did not want to see their “loser” father. So, he decided to “enjoy the decline.”

I think he was right, and I wished that I met him before I got married, but in those pre-Internet days, we were on our own. You, however, have no excuse to make those mistakes. Nobody cares about you but you yourself, and thus you owe it to yourself to have a great life: without a wife, or even a stable girlfriend!

John Saxon is a retired lawyer, who has practiced family law and civil litigation since the early 1980’s, primarily defending men in a feminist legal system. He is divorced with seven grown-up children, three grandchildren and an insane ex-wife, described by her own mother as a “drug taking whore.” He became “red-pilled” the hard way, before the Internet and neomasculinity. His articles are based on his own experiences and that of an older generation of men, gleamed from his legal practice, from beatings on the anvil of life. In his final years, he hopes to help young men with grandfatherly red pill advice of the old school.

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  • Not even close to my mid-thirties yet but I definitely agree with you on all these points. Also, good to know that such a time will come so I can prepare for this urge since I don’t plan on ruining my life because of some cunt and biased laws. Great post!

  • Charles Martel

    Yes Goym, stop producing. We’ll take great care of the Earth once you’re gone, we promise!

  • Denise

    I’m a young woman and I agree I don’t want to get married or have kids either

  • Hoyos

    As much as I sympathize, man if I was as bad a son to my father as he seems to imply all children are I couldn’t line with myself.

    Of course I know some men are raised by parents not fit to raise a dog but pure cynicism doesn’t really fit reality either.

  • Lapochka

    Hmmm, I prefer to take my counsel from the Highest Authority on this subject: “Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge” – Hebrews 13:4.

    You can take all your life experiences, studies and research and if it doesn’t tally with this, it’s worthless.

  • diogeneslamp0

    A woman’s body does not incorporate the DNA of her past lovers. I read the article linked to, and there’s no evidence that anything like that happens in humans, so your statement is false. There’s some speculation about possible mechanisms whereby it might happen, like microchimerism– but no one’s ever observed human microchimerism where a woman’s DNA incorporates that of the sperm of her previous lovers from years ago. A conceivable mechanism is not proof, nor even a proper deduction. Microchimerism can be tested for, after all. Where’s the test?

    As for the DNA of a previous lover winding up in offspring years later, the model system mentioned was flies, and the feature was an acquired characteristic– thus epigenetic– which wouldn’t be incorporated into a genome, anyway. The blog post by RooshV talks about RNA, but that can’t be incorporated into a genome without the RNA getting into the nucleus and being reverse transcribed.

    If any of that happened in humans, paternity tests would return weird results. They don’t. If a woman were married to Mr. X for 10 years then he dies and she marries Mr. Y, the baby should look more like X than Y, and DNA paternity tests should return Mr. X. They don’t.

    You need some other reason for demanding that your bride be a virgin. Perhaps an honest admission would be best: you feel insecure about her comparing your sexual performance against that of other men, and for selfish reasons want her to be ignorant of possible benchmarks. That’s the best argument you’re likely to ever have, so you’d best run with it.

  • diogeneslamp0

    The sentence “Genetic material is also exchanged through semen-borne noncoding RNA and seminal proteins” is particularly senseless. Genetic material cannot be exchanged through proteins. There is no reverse coding. Genetic material could conceivably be incorporated via RNA, but you need to get it into the nucleus and you need a reverse transcriptase. And how does that work? And is there evidence it ever happened in humans?

    Like, you future wife f**ks some handsome dude… his sperm goes up to her uterus… wait, her future eggs are up in the ovaries. If sperm could swim up the fallopian tubes and go fuse with the eggs in the uterus, she’d be pregnant the next time she ovulates, always. If sperm could do that, it would be in the male’s evolutionary interest to fertilize all premature eggs in the ovaries. It doesn’t work that way.

  • AlexDeLaMelle

    Excluding the argument you’re interested in dismantling; the man who wrote the article which this author referenced raised some valid points about his preference to marry a virgin, especially from his perspective and circumstances in life.

    None of those points had to do with sexual insecurity. It just seemed like a safeguard against current social structure which he finds unfavorable.

  • Oc.Va.

    Solid essay. Kudos to the writer, especially for this:

    “The idea that children will carry on one’s name after death—giving one a symbolic immortality—is sheer nonsense”

    A thousand times yes. I am pretty sick of those pop evolutionary psychology-pushers blathering all day long about the importance of “passing on your genes” and similar stuff. Who cares? People never have children due to such urge. They either just “happen” in the absence of birth control or are sired deliberately, either for economic utility (Thirld World) or as pets (First World).

    Similarly, what is truly upsetting about being a cuckold is not so much that you are raising somebody else’s kid but the fact that you are being duped. If the first thing were the real issue, then adoptive parents would always be cuckolds (and self-conscious to boot), which of course makes no sense. I think it is better to have a biological child because he will be more similar to you, but whatever emotional connection with him you might have will be born out of shared experiences, not shared genes.

    Anyways, by the age of 15 I already knew I wanted no conventional family and certainly no kids. I am 27 now and I still think the same. I doubt I will change my mind. Children are purely and simply a luxury in current Western societies.

  • My martial arts teacher (sifu) once said to me that your child will never do nor become exactly what you want him to be. He was right. A child has it’s own mind, his own life. You can shape your child to some degree but it still has it’s own free will and the ability to make choices for himself.

  • Oc.Va.

    Exactly. It is so sad to contemplate all those helicopter parents aggresively pushing piano lessons, sports, etc into what should be their children’s leisure time, trying to live out their dreams and aspirations through them. I can understand the “Tiger Mom” mindset regarding the need of discipline, but there is something inherently off-putting (and un-Western I would say) about parading your kids as trained robots for social status.

  • greatguy999

    I totally, completely disagree with this author. His advice is extremely dangerous and lacking in common sense. Here’s why.
    He based the entirety of his advice on his narrow anecdotal experience. It is like a plane crash survivor telling everyone never to travel in planes ever, because planes do crash, you see. Of course they crash. But just because they do does not mean we cannot take precautions, and invent ways to make us safe while traveling.
    Or a lottery winner telling everybody to play the lottery, because “I won, you see”. Duh! Results do vary.
    A saner approach is to highlight the dangers inherent in marrying a damaged woman, which most American women are, though there are still a few good one among them, if you know where to look. Or better still, go look for wives in other countries. The Philippines, Poland, etc are relatively better.
    And, if possible, limit your spouse’s exposure to the US until both of you are in your older years, when the temptations for her to destroy your marriage are minimal (older women hardly divorce, because they have relatively lower prospects of finding new spouses).

  • greatguy999

    You’re a brainless, thoughtless robot who lacks reasoning powers. Go ahead, make yourself into a genetic deadend.

  • Hope Springsteen

    I wonder how it makes your sons feel to know you regret them.

  • Denise

    omg why did you…where did that come from :(

  • Charles Massie

    He admits he already has a large family… But he is confessing that he loves whores more… And so his family is getting in the way of his lifestyle, my dad is similar, really a generational problem. Those people who grew up in the sixties and seventies think to screw anything that walks.

  • Charles Massie

    I didn’t feel the need to look it up and I am not a scientist but I had a feeling that was bs… Nothing wrong with marrying a woman with kids then you know that her womb is strong.

  • Simon Elliot

    Our planet, and all life on it, will not last forever, so it doesn’t matter.

  • greatguy999

    O really? Why take care of your health, or get out of the way when a vehicle is coming your way? After all, no one lives forever, and you’re going to die some day. See how foolish your logic sounds?

  • Simon Elliot

    Uh, because I don’t want to put myself through more suffering and pain than I’m already in?

  • greatguy999

    So it does matter, after all?

  • Simon Elliot

    Breathing and eating matters to me because I don’t want to suffer pain. That’s quite different from wanting humanity to perpetuate itself for the sake of your ego, your desire for vicarious (fake) immortality through procreation.

  • Pingback: Marriage? Children? Just Don’t Do It – By Matt Forney | MGTOW 2.0()

  • ThePatriarchy

    Marriage is the method with which women and the state bring men to heel. It has but two goals: (1) increased consumption and (2) forcing wealth and power from men to women and the state.

  • Peter Clifford

    They probably don’t give a shit!

  • Peter Clifford

    Says Mangina Sam, Kid obviously you’re a little metro-sexual Millennial Shit crab. Good if the CUNTry dies off less millennial fucking Golden Shit Scrapes and Cunt Crabs like your lot in the world!

  • Peter Clifford

    Yes I’ve magically stayed the hell away from these little golden cunt crabs ahoy from Australia over here our laws are EVEN WORSE then yours just a couple of days ago a guy over here got 5 years in prison for voicing his opinion about how insane women are on facebook didn’t even have any swearing in it or NOTHING Australia the worst place for men our women are PURE NASTY worse then UK/US women and Australia in the FEMINIST CAPITAL OF THE WORLD worse then sweden even!

  • Peter Clifford

    Not a luxury an UNNEEDED BURDEN! I’m 33 and live in Australia where every animal and every woman is trying to KILL YOU!

  • Peter Clifford

    That’s why I have a fleshlight! so whenever I have the urge I just blow my load in that and clean it up afterwards!

  • Peter Clifford

    Agreed!

  • Peter Clifford

    I have news for you cupcake various seminal fluids get absorbed through the fallopian tubes!

  • pubpubpub

    Roosh would have to move out of his mother’s basement (literally) and get a job before he could be an “Alpha Provider.” Maybe your White-woman-abusing Arab “son” needs to work on himself before he “improves” all these White woman you hate so much. 88

  • greatguy999

    Really? Is that the best you could do? No sensible response whatsoever; only loads of ad hominems.
    If you were smarter you would have thought about the long term ramifications of widespread childlessness by choice. But it’s obvious you don’t always put the brain that God gave you into good use. No wonder you didn’t see anything wrong in making yourself a genetic deadend. Go ahead; don’t have kids. Don’t get married. But don’t complain if your country becomes overrun by immigrants, and you rapidly become a minority in your own land.
    And, if you think you won’t be here when that happens, think again. You are one of those thoughtless millennials (as is obvious from your brainless response). In a mere 30 years, you’ll wish you had made a smarter decision.

  • greatguy999

    Ever heard of pain pills? Why not overdose on some pain pills and rid the world of someone like yourself? That sure is a painless way to go.
    If your parents did not indulge in their “desire for vicarious immortality” by having you, we sure won’t be having this conversation.
    But wait….what if the parents of all those who made modern life easy to live did not indulge in their “desire for vicarious immortality” as well? We’ll still be living in caves and treating infections with leeches and hot metals.

  • Simon Elliot

    So basically “go kill yourself faggot”? Yes, what an original argument.

    Making our existing lives better at the expense of the next generation, I don’t think that’s an ethically acceptable trade. Of course I would argue that the world is imperfect, as is everything in it, and it cannot be improved because shittiness is ingrained in the very fabric of the universe. What’s better than a problem solved? A problem that never existed in the first place. After all, a problem is never truly solved, as a problem solved is invariably a problem caused. Solve one problem and several more spring up in its place.

  • greatguy999

    Straw man argument. The original issue was about having kids, which you said was not smart, which I said was the right thing to do.
    Now you’ve changed it all to an issue of “Making our existing lives better at the expense of the next generation”. A classic straw man argument.

    No one said to do what you just wrote. My original point, which I am repeating now, is that refusing to have kids en masse is absolutely DUMB.
    And, if you think other countries will follow suit, you are grossly mistaken. They will have kids. The world will continue, only that your likes will become a minority in it, and be increasingly frustrated, because they will be out-voted at every turn by the mass of those who will have kids.

  • Simon Elliot

    Your motivation to have kids is born out of ego, that the white race must not allow the mud races to inherit the earth, etc. You do not care how many white children have miserable lives. All you care about is perpetuation for the sake of perpetuation.

    Other countries, specifically third world shitholes, will never catch on. I fear the only thing for us to do is sterilise them en masse, or perhaps kill them by putting an agent into the water supply. A pathogen that would send them into a deep sleep from which they would never awake. Seeing as they would have no idea that they’re going to die, there will be no psychological trauma for them. In all cases, it is guaranteed to be a much more peaceful death than they would have been dealt otherwise.

  • greatguy999

    Seriously? I now have a better idea why you don’t value your life.

  • greatguy999

    I didn’t know that there were no other countries in the world outside Australia!
    Dude, much better women exist in many other parts of the world. Intentional childlessness is like letting a terrorist detonate its plane bomb in mid-air while you’re a passenger. Sure, the terrorist is going to die, but he/she will take you along.
    A smarter move would be to checkmate the terrorist, in this case, the feminists, by having kids, lots of them, on a mass scale, and training those kids in redpill message from the cradle. They will grow up to reject feminist nonsense, and this will lead to the death of feminism.
    It takes a longer time, but that is the only way. Giving up is self defeating.

  • Doctor Mayhem

    #THOTGenocide

  • Denise

    Huh??

  • Adam Haidt

    Ho-lee shit, it’s Simon Elliot. Never thought I’d see your sorry melted face again. How are ya, buddy?

  • Simon Elliot

    I’m having a very bad nervous breakdown and will not be active online for some time. Who are you?

  • positron1

    Yeah. Most Americans seem to think Australia is somehow cool, but it sounds like a total hell hole to me. Wouldn’t mind the GBR and surfing, but I can get reefs and surfing in Central America for much less $$$ and the women are infinity better. As bad as US women are, they’re probably the best in the Anglosphere. Hope you figure a way out of Oz.