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The Matt Forney Show, Episode 93: How Jordan Owen Destroyed The Sarkeesian Effect

In this episode, I talk to Davis Aurini. We discuss the second crackup of The Sarkeesian Effect, how Jordan Owen has been sabotaging the project and lying about Aurini, Owen’s narcissism and psychology, and where Aurini is going from here. I also announce that I will be attending #GGInChicago this weekend and talk about the new UVA/Rolling Stone erotica parody A Date on Campus: Jackie’s First Frat Party.

Listen below:

This edition of the podcast is brought to you by Confessions of an Online Hustler, Escaping from Reality Without Really Trying, Island Lion Herbals, and Bachelor Pad Economics. To advertise on the show, click here.

Matt Forney Show listeners, get 15 percent off when you order from Island Lion Herbals! Just enter the coupon code “forney” at checkout.

The Matt Forney Show is presented by Davis Aurini. Intro song “You Done Me Wrong” and outro song “Gwo’in the Back Door” by Matt Baldoni. Transcript by Eve Penman.

Subscribe to the podcast here; check out past episodes here. You can also subscribe to the show on SoundCloud or the iTunes Store. I welcome feedback on how to improve the show. If you would like to be a guest on a future episode, click here to email me.


MATT FORNEY: At this time I’d like to welcome Davis Aurini to The Matt Forney Show. Davis, thank you for coming on the program.

DAVIS AURINI: What is this, a crossover episode?

MATT FORNEY: Ha ha. Well, yes, you are the official presenter of the show, now I’m having you on as a guest. So it’s the ultimate circle jerk fantasy.

And we also have music by Matt Baldoni, who also does the music for your podcast. So, jeez, it’s a real glad handing session here.

DAVIS AURINI: He’s a talented individual, ain’t he?

MATT FORNEY: And he also, most importantly, lets us use his music.

DAVIS AURINI: Yeah, and I like that part too.



MATT FORNEY: But anyway, the focus of this interview as I mentioned earlier, Davis, basically, The Sarkeesian Effect, your partner, I mean to put it politely, has gone completely insane. He is committing actionable character defamation. He has more or less—he’s destroyed the entire project, cut you out of it, and, well, basically, you want to start up from the top? I don’t want to put words in your mouth.

DAVIS AURINI: Well, didn’t we have this conversation already? It seems, I feel like we’ve had this conversation.

MATT FORNEY: We have had this conversation, but that was, yeah, that was back in March, you managed to reconcile. And also that was in a DEFCON, I guess, 3; this is DEFCON 1, where all the missiles are launched.

DAVIS AURINI: Well, exactly. So, what happened is, I’m just going to say what happened. I posted a video doing a FundAnything campaign, because we do need more money to finish this freaking movie, although it is really starting to come together.

So I post this video, you know, the mediator, Michael Whiteacre, he’s been talking to Owen about this for two freaking weeks. And I’d said, well, you know, like Owen’s even—he’s refusing to send me any living expenses, you know. Same as last time, he always does this right before the end of the month because he’s that sort of a guy, you know.

MATT FORNEY: You stay classy, Mr. Owen.

DAVIS AURINI: Yes, stay—something like that, yes. Stay classy. So, you know, two weeks go by, I’m like all right, you know, I told you I was going to upload the video. And plus, this guy has a real job, you know, he’s got a freaking wife, he’s got a wife; he’s got a dog to take care of, and he’s babysitting Owen all the time. So, I upload the video and I say all sorts of nice wonderful things about Mr. Owen.

Within a few hours, Owen goes online calling me a scam artist, saying this, that, the other thing; saying that now he’s going to finish the documentary all by himself, and… whatever, and that I’ve just been wasting money on the project, that I’m a destructive influence, I refuse to do any work; derpa-derpa-derpa-derp.

Yeah, so I posted an update video yesterday that—what am I talking about? I posted an update video about ten minutes ago and I’m freaking exhausted right now.

MATT FORNEY: It’ll tentatively be Wednesday when this comes up, so it was yesterday.

DAVIS AURINI: For all you folks in the time warp, it was yesterday.


DAVIS AURINI: Coming to you live from yesterday afternoon!

MATT FORNEY: Ha ha ha ha.

DAVIS AURINI: So he just goes absolutely nuclear. Like, when he grenaded the project, it was pretty bad, it was embarrassing. You have him all green, pale, and sweating, having a major panic attack and—

MATT FORNEY: High off of a million anti-anxiety meds.

DAVIS AURINI: Highest possible dosage, as he loves to tell people. And that was bad enough. And, you know, as I pointed out, he’s never explained or justified that. And, so, but this time he is calling me a scam artist; he is saying that I am lying, that I refuse to do any work, that I’m just mooching off the Patreon.

He’s not even saying that I have made unwise decisions or investments with this money. He is saying I am intentionally and psychopathically mooching off the Patreon supporters; that I have absolutely no emotions whatsoever; that he has all the emotions, I’m an unthinking—unfeeling machine, just trying to manipulate him and hurt him.

Oh, my God. That is something I forgot to put in the update video. All of these accusations about me manipulating him. Jeez.

MATT FORNEY: Owen gives me the impression that he’s a very sensitive individual who never properly learned how to take a ribbing.

DAVIS AURINI: Ha ha ha. Every successful man in his life he thinks is, like, a misogynist that hates and abuses women.

MATT FORNEY: Yeah. When he was growing up a kid, I can just imagine him, he was the one, when the guys are busting each other’s balls, Owen, guys tried to bust his balls in a friendly manner, he goes and cries to teacher: “Teacher, they said I was fat.”

DAVIS AURINI: He is the Harry Kim of the Internet, for all of you Voyager fans out there.

Yeah, and this is the terrible situation I find myself in, man. Anybody that I actually—it’s like kicking a puppy with rabies. The guy is just such a hot mess that if you know all the details it’s—it’s like cruelty, you know. He’s like this child wandering around the adult world but has no idea that, you know, don’t touch the stove, it’s hot.

MATT FORNEY: Yeah. Dealing with someone like him is literally like picking on a retard. A retard keeps shitting on the floor, but at the same time he’s a retard, what do you expect him to do?

DAVIS AURINI: You know what, the thing is there—retards can be assholes too. I know, I know, we’re all supposed to think that if everyone is a retard it’d be a better world, retards are great people—no, retards are freaking assholes sometimes. I mean lots of them are nice because everyone’s nice to them all the time, but what’s that guy, Chris-chan.

MATT FORNEY: Oh, yeah.

DAVIS AURINI: I mean, I do not—I would never bully Chris-chan, because it’s just too sad. I think there’s something unnecessarily sadistic about these people that pick on Chris-chan. But at the same time, Chris-chan’s a fucking asshole.

MATT FORNEY: Well, the guy went and maced a fucking GameStop employee over the color of Sonic the Hedgehog’s arms. So, yeah, he’s a serious asshole.

DAVIS AURINI: But he stalks women, he harasses people, like the guy’s a prick.


DAVIS AURINI: So I’m not pro-harassing Chris-chan, but I’m not condemning them either.

MATT FORNEY: Uh-huh. Basically, to sort of keep things on track, Owen’s been accusing you of wasting time and trying to, more or less, rip people off, but as is the case with narcissists, the reality’s the opposite.

Owen has been the one wasting money on the project, blowing the budget every which way. Like, for example, well, we talked about this back when he grenaded the project back in March. The guy had a panic attack because he was thinking about Roosh, our mutual associate Roosh and how much he hates Roosh. He got kicked off a plane at Newark Airport—

DAVIS AURINI: Oh, oh, correction, correction. He made a big stink about this. He didn’t get kicked off the plane. He wasn’t allowed onto the plane.


DAVIS AURINI: Don’t lie about him for me. Don’t spread these malicious rumors. He wasn’t allowed on to the plane.

MATT FORNEY: Oh, I’m sorry. I’m sorry, Mr. Owen, if you’re listening. Nah, nah, nah. He was not allowed on to the plane and he ended up having to rent a car to drive all the way back to Atlanta, which probably cost a grand out of the budget.

Another fine example you’ve talked about, when the three of you went to the GamerGate meet-up in DC, he insisted on staying in a four-star hotel which cost an obscene amount of money.

DAVIS AURINI: I’m going to defend him just a little bit, because I don’t need to exaggerate. The four-star hotel was on special, so the hotel itself was cheap. But here’s the thing, we have two cars, he rented a car for whatever reason. He thought a Camry was a sports car. Sorry, that’s—I shouldn’t—that’s mean.

We had cars. We had—it’s not like we had meetings all day, okay. We were supposed to interview two people, didn’t happen, and we had a meet-up to go to in the evening. And he doesn’t—you know, it’s—whatever. We could have stayed at a freaking motel by the airport.

He did get the hotel cheap, but he doesn’t seem to understand that, and, folks, this is just a lesson for all of you out there. The difference between a three-star and a four-star, a three-star might have a restaurant or it might not; it might have a gym or it might not; it might have a bar, it might not, et cetera.

The difference is a four-star has everything but it costs twice as much. So if you go to a three-star, they might not have a restaurant, but there’s a restaurant, like, a block away, walking distance away, you know. That’s the difference between three-star and four-star; it’s the exact same crummy shampoo. Like, four-star hotel, there’s no boot polish rag, okay; half of three-stars have that. Terrible, terrible hotel. So, yeah, it wound up being expensive.

MATT FORNEY: The point I was trying to make is that if anyone’s been wasting money, it’s Owen. You want to get a bit more into basically how he’s been mishandling the budget more or less?

DAVIS AURINI: Well, do you know what it is? It’s turned into an ego project for him. You know, he has this—good Lord. I was saying to him, like, back in December, January, it’s like, you know what, we pretty much have enough interviews. And even right before the GamerGate DC meet-up, I was saying, do we—like, listen, Christine Hoff Sommers, Milo Yiannopoulos, they’re both really cool people, you know. I think they are the cat’s freaking pajamas. Is this worth traveling for?

And he’s like, well, I can handle it. It’s like, no, no; I saw the interview that you filmed. It’s at a Dutch angle, it’s all blue, and it’s unrecoverable. I hate to say it, it’s un-freaking-recoverable. No, I need to be there if we’re going to film this damn thing. Is it really worth two more interviews? He convinced me it was, but then we didn’t get any interviews anyway, so.

MATT FORNEY: So there’s a waste of money. You also mentioned he had put an artist on salary that basically produced nothing for the project?

DAVIS AURINI: And I don’t want to blame the artist for this too much. It’s like I wasn’t allowed to criticize the artist because whenever I criticized him Owen took that as a personal insult. So, he delivers a rough draft, a kind of idea, and I’m like, okay; is this moving in the right direction? Everything needs to be changed. The idea was, like, a police blotter.

I might even release some of this footage at some point because it’s that freaking bad, but the damn thing spends ten seconds doing a 360 around a thumbtack in the side of a police blotter. And then it just goes to pictures of—and it’s like, I’m making this movie and there’s this picture and I’m like: Jordan, who the hell is this? And, God, what’s her name, female writer for Kotaku.

MATT FORNEY: Patricia Hernandez?

DAVIS AURINI: No, someone else.

MATT FORNEY: I can’t remember either.

DAVIS AURINI: Like, barely even a — I don’t know if she will be mentioned in the documentary, in anything more than passing. And it’s, oh, good Lord. So, what Owen is doing there, again, this is going to be me—am I a psychologist? Forney, am I a psychologist?

MATT FORNEY: No, you are not a psychologist.


MATT FORNEY: I am not a psychologist.

DAVIS AURINI: Okay. So this is just pure speculation on, you know, sharing hotel rooms and studying this guy’s behavior extensively. He wants to be the boss. And so, like, the artist and giving him a salary, Owen’s the boss, he’s a producer.

MATT FORNEY: So, yeah, he basically wants to have power but he doesn’t know how to handle power.

DAVIS AURINI: No leadership.

MATT FORNEY: Yeah. It’s the sort of paradox of, like, anyone who seriously wants power usually can’t be trusted with it, whereas those who specifically avoid seeking out, like, political power or action usually end up being the best leaders.

DAVIS AURINI: And it’s, I actually feel bad for the kid. Well, I don’t feel that bad because he’s walking around $4,500 richer, but, you know, his art could have actually been used more extensively. And it’s just a bloody shame that it’s just a bunch of useless effort.

Jordan doesn’t understand what, like, a design document for the whole thing is, you know. Like, I had to nail—I had to explain to this kid what a design document for the whole thing is; what are the colors we use, what are the fonts, what is all of this. You know, you’re the freaking artist, you’re getting paid well enough, buddy, you nail this down and you make it consistent.

It has to be the same art style, the same color scheme, all the way out through the whole damn movie; if we want this to look professional, that’s what we need to do.

MATT FORNEY: Basically, and the other thing is that Jordan was apparently under the illusion or more accurately the delusion that you could finish editing in a relatively rapid period of time. Like, the big thing now that, when he announced that he was cutting you out of the project this time, that the movie’s apparently going to premier at GamerGate in Atlanta, which is next week I believe, weekend after next.

Number one, Owen has nothing, he has no movie, he hasn’t edited anything. And even you, the guy who is responsible for putting the movie together and you’re only a third of the way done. Doing the stuff takes time.

DAVIS AURINI: Not even, you know, actually about a third, I guess. Especially now that I don’t have to babysit freaking Owen and worry about him exploding in public any more.

MATT FORNEY: Yeah. And another thing I would add is that you are a lot, I mean, you’re not the absolute, greatest filmmaker on planet earth, but you are a lot better at this than Owen is.

Like, for example, well, going by his own videos, he is absolutely horrible. Half the time he records them on his web cam. He has no concept of editing or respect for anyone’s time, so he usually ends up rambling for a half hour or an hour longer than he needs to.

Like, for example, when he infamously had his pants-shitting episode about Roosh back in February, the combined videos he put up on that article were about maybe two hours in length. So Owen—

DAVIS AURINI And he spent the first 40 minutes of his first attack video sucking up to you and Bechtloff.


DAVIS AURINI: He didn’t even mention anything the video was about for 40 freaking minutes. It was an utterly irrelevant ramble that had nothing to do with the video.


DAVIS AURINI: I’m sleep-deprived right now and I’m more coherent than one of his videos.

MATT FORNEY: Yeah. Maybe five, ten minutes of the video was about Roosh, the extent of the subject of the video. So, like—

DAVIS AURINI: And to make a comparison with the rough draft I just released, if you watch and pay attention certain phrases keep being repeated. You know, there are very subtle turns of phrase that I use to paint a picture with one word. There’s one bit early on where it basically alludes to 1984 and brainwashing and Marxism, it’s one word I use. And it’s a selection of that one word in something that’s a paragraph long. Because a paragraph takes about a minute to read and we’ve only got 87 minutes to make this freaking movie; every word freaking counts.

MATT FORNEY: Yeah. You have to trim it down as much as you can. Owen has no ability to trim anything, he has no ability to present videos. Like, what exactly is the motivator? How exactly does he think you’ll be able to have a movie ready by the end of next week? Does he legitimately think this? Is there some kind of ulterior—do you think he has some sort of ulterior plan? I mean, from a rational perspective, it doesn’t make any sense what he’s doing.

DAVIS AURINI: Again, this is my observation on him, and this is why I screwed up in the first place trusting him. It is because he behaves with a lot of competence. You know, he wishes he were Michael Whiteacre, he wishes he were me, and he started off with a bit of hero worship when the whole project began, but he acts so freaking competent. And so it’s, you know what, it’s the Dunning-Kruger effect manifest. He has no freaking clue what he’s doing, but he walks around competent like he knows what he’s doing. So you, the idiot, you assume he does know what the hell he’s doing.

So what happens? Like, the story of his life is that he shows up and he just assumes everything’s going to work for him. And, you know, other people are actually busting their humps to make stuff work, he never notices it. He thinks that things just work for him, and if they don’t work it’s somebody else’s fault.

So I kind of suspect, and I said this in the update video, and, see, I don’t know—I don’t think he’s doing this consciously. All right, this guy keeps changing the facts in his own mind, you know. I mentioned, he kept arguing about money and I showed him the freaking, you know, this is what everything costs, and yet two weeks later he’s arguing about it again. It’s madness.

So what I think he’s doing is he is going to—he blames me for everything, you know, because I’m a terrible filmmaker and I’ve been lazy and I’ve been wasting the budget. And so he’s going to punish me by not allowing any more fundraising. Like, who the—what filmmaker doesn’t want more money, for crying out loud? What retard does not—oh, that, not even from a greed perspective. From a purely artistic perspective, you always want more money.

MATT FORNEY: Yeah, especially considering that when it came to your monthly Patreon goals, you came in under budget every single month. You weren’t making the amount of money that you asked for, though you still ended up making the movie.

DAVIS AURINI: Yeah. And I think, I think we really pulled something good together. Like I know movies are a lot of money and I hate asking for money, especially, it sounds like a lot of money. Like, “Lust in the Time of Heartache,” $10,000, sounds like a lot of money. And SJWs say, this cost ten—it looks bloody great. Go look up any other $10,000 film, folks, it’s expensive.

But, so what I think he’s doing is he is just going to release a big steaming heap of smelly garbage and then he’s going to say: “Oh, it’s Davis’s fault.” And then all the SJW hugbots from GamerGhazi are going to surround him and tell him he’s a good little boy.


DAVIS AURINI: Except, I kind of screwed that up for him by releasing something surprisingly half-decent for being deep in rough draft.

MATT FORNEY: Yeah. Basically he’s going to completely screw up next week, but rather then take the blame he’s going to make you into the Emmanuel Goldstein figure for GamerGhazi and all the soft, left-libertarian, quasi-SJW supporters to have their little two-minute hate, you know: “Well, it would have been good if Davis hadn’t screwed it up, duh, duh, duh.”

DAVIS AURINI: “That guy’s just a narcissist; I’ve seen his videos, he’s a scam artist. Yeah, the guy that talks about honor and admits that he’s a”—screws up, you know, more often than I’d like, ha ha ha.

MATT FORNEY: As opposed to the guy who already grenaded the project once because he has deep-rooted sexual issues.

Davis Aurini: Yeah. The guy that never ever admits he’s wrong and doesn’t even know that he—he still thinks he’s an alpha, too. He actually started a conversation about that while we were in Washington, D.C. And it’s like—I’m not saying like I’m God’s gift to women; I’m very handsome, but, ha ha. I’m saying that I’ve kissed a couple of girls in my lifetime.

And Michael, I’m not going to go into his career path, but he knows his ways around a woman’s hips, let’s say. And we have Owen who’s in a metal band and yet is still just this bundle of sexual frustration telling us he’s an alpha.

MATT FORNEY: I believe you once mentioned, by his own admission, Owen hasn’t gotten laid in something like two or three years?

Davis Aurini: Well, and, you know, this is one of the big mistakes I made right from the beginning with this project. Folks, if you ever run into your Jordan Owen and they start telling you about the most pathetic story of sexual failure you’ve ever heard, you know, like some, there’s some girl that’s been flirting with them on Facebook for two or three years, that stands them up on a date—like, she stood them up several times but he still just feeds attention into her.

If you ever run into that guy, ask for his advice. Don’t give him advice. That guy will hate you for giving him advice.

MATT FORNEY: Because he doesn’t want advice. He just wants, you know, someone to pat him on the shoulder, tell him what a good boy he’s been.

DAVIS AURINI: Exactly. He wants to feel like a boss. And if you make him feel like a boss he will act like a slave. If you’ve watched The Office, Michael in The Office is a freaking slave. He makes, like, he makes like a buck more an hour than the guy working in the warehouse, and he works twelve—Michael works twelve hours a day, he’s a complete slave for corporate, but corporate makes him feel like a boss when all he is, is a paper pusher. And that’s—he wants the pat on the head.

If you give Michael advice about how to improve his lifestyle, he will do everything he can to destroy you. If you treat him like a slave but give him a pat on the head and give him a gold wristwatch and, you know, ask him for advice, he’ll worship you.

MATT FORNEY: Yeah. Basically, to use the overused Matrix analogy, some people just don’t want to be unplugged from the Matrix, and if you try to do it they’re going to hate you for it.

DAVIS AURINI: And on an even deeper level, the only way to unplug them successfully is to give them more blue pill. They might one day have enough of the blue pill that they throw it all up and say this is bullshit, I wasted my entire life. Glad you finally figured that out, cupcake. Now, are you ready to play the real game? The real game’s interesting, the real game’s fun; the real game has consequences. Like, we don’t like slaves, we want real people.

MATT FORNEY: Yeah. To sort of continue on this tack, Owen’s mental illnesses are the primary reason why he’s kept repeatedly trying to sabotage the project.

DAVIS AURINI: And let’s establish something. When we say mental illnesses, this is not speculation on our part; this is a demonstrable fact. He’s openly admitted this and his massive intake of anti-anxiety meds. Like, what the hell are you doing in a band or trying to make movies if you have anxiety problems? Good Lord.

MATT FORNEY: Yes, basically. When he grenaded the project back in March, it was because, basically, of transmuted rage against Roosh, our mutual associate.

DAVIS AURINI: Or me, but Roosh was the—Roosh was what he was taking it out on, but it was rage at me, because by giving him advice about women I saw that he was bad with women. And since Owen has this persona of being a metal guy, that, you know, he’s a libertine and porn’s awesome, and it’s like all those breeders are going to go extinct while us porn people are going to take over the world, because we’re the master, this is actually—I’m quoting him. I swear to God, I swear to God.

MATT FORNEY: He’s actually said this?

DAVIS AURINI: He thinks that, like, his pornified, Ayn Randian, Ubermensch thing are like the superior people; the people that use condoms and don’t — and like I’m — hey, I’m not attacking porn here, okay. I’m not attacking — I’m attacking people that lie.

You know, the thing is, porn doesn’t make babies, but Owen thinks that they’re going to take over the earth and it’s all those loser Christians that are having babies and homeschooling them, those fucking losers are going extinct.

MATT FORNEY: Hmm hmm hmm hmm. So says the man who hasn’t been laid in God knows when.

DAVIS AURINI: Well, that’s because we manipulate and rape women.

MATT FORNEY:: Oh, yeah, yeah. We’re boardwalk hustlers, boardwalk chicanery. Yeah, but anyway.

Considering that it was massive mental issues that drove Owen to grenade the project the last time around, I’m wondering if after he’s basically embarrassed himself at GamerGate in Atlanta next week, like, if there’s a risk that he might decide to commit suicide or something?

I’m not saying this because I want the guy—I mean, I would really seriously hope Owen would turn his life around, but, like, I’ve got the impression from him that, and you’ve said this to me as well, this is demonstrably obvious from watching his videos, Owen is a very unhappy man; he is in a lot of pain. You can’t be on a ton of anti-anxiety meds and not have—and seriously claim that you’re happy in any demonstrable fashion.

Could this be like the final, like, completely—is this going to be like a final sequence of events that drives him to basically end it all? I mean, again, I don’t want to sound like I’m reveling in this or being, like, gossipy or whatever. I genuinely do worry about the guy’s mental health.

DAVIS AURINI: You know what, man, I tell you, one of the worst parts about all of this for me is that I actually genuinely cared about the guy. And I see, the guy’s got so much potential good in him. Like, that’s a huge tragedy of all. If he would stop trying to pretend to be that ridiculous cartoon of the heavy metal musician that he uses for a Twitter profile. If he would stop pretending—like, dude, that’s not you. You’re a gentle giant that likes cats, okay. Yet you’re—you’re not an alpha male and it’s okay, man.

You know, like, I’m not an alpha male. I’m a fucking philosophy weirdo that just, I like shooting guns, you know. I’m a crack shot, but I’m not—yeah, I have friends that are alpha males, okay. You know, Michael Whiteacre, he’s pretty freaking alpha. I’m not.


DAVIS AURINI: But he keeps trying so hard to be something he’s not and it makes him freaking miserable. And you’re asking if he’s going to commit suicide? He is committing suicide every day. Every day is an exercise in self-loathing and self-hatred. And that panic attack? I tell you, what really drove him over the edge was when I tried to tell him how much I care about him and how much I like him and all the good things I see in him, because he doesn’t believe that he deserves love.

So he puts up—the only way he can get love is from people hating him. He loves hatred. You’ll notice like, if you—make a sockpuppet account and send Owen an insult, he’ll respond. Send him a genuine concerned question, he’ll ignore you because that’s condescending, in his mind. It’s just absolutely pathetic he is.

MATT FORNEY: He is an incredibly self-destructive individual. And he’s trying to sabotage the project, he won’t, but basically I—it’s kind of worrying. And to sort of continue on the same tack, Owen, just like the last time, Owen has been getting massive amounts of support from GamerGhazi and anti-GamerGate, and a bunch of unscrupulous figures who basically000for number one, the fact that the supposed targets of The Sarkeesian Effect, the SJWs, have sided with Owen of all people, that should probably indicate that he’s on the wrong side. But he’s also getting cuddled up to by, I forget her name, Kristina Hansen, Wooly Bumblebee?


MATT FORNEY: Who is best known, she was—I forgot what position she had. She used to work for A Voice for Men. About two years ago she was hired by A Voice for Men as their, I forget what, she was one of their editors, but she was what our mutual friend Bernard Chapin would call a left-wing infiltrator. Well, she’s not the only one, but she’s the most obvious one.

DAVIS AURINI: She was a complete destructive infiltrator. Whatever she says she—go, look at her Twitter, look at her freaking YouTube. She is just nasty and poison. She is mad as an adder, to use the correct saying.

MATT FORNEY: Yeah. She’s a complete saboteur. She was fired because her presence at the site was irritating so many of the site’s readers that the project was in jeopardy. I mean, Elam tried to deny this when I confronted him about it a few days ago, confronting the fact that A Voice for Men’s Sage Gerard was cuddling up to Owen now. But basically she was a destructive force and now she is siding up with Owen.

And what reason—I mean, we can see the deeper psychological reason. These SJWs like seeing Owen in pain and they like feeding his pain, but do you have any other theories on why the SJWs are immediately lining up behind him?

DAVIS AURINI: You know what, this just struck me and, yeah, I hope I’m not revealing too much, but this is based upon a conversation that we had. About like—we are often mistaken for narcissists, and, yeah, I can kind of see it because we’re pretty arrogant, we’re jerks, ha ha ha. I can see why people would mistake us on the Internet for narcissists. But we are talking about, like, we keep getting these codependents.

See, the narcissist and the codependent go together; like the codependent wants to be abused by the narcissist and the narcissist wants to abuse somebody. But what happens, and a great example of this, it was The Rawness that wrote about this, is Mystery. The whole Mystery Method, Mystery is a codependent that decides that he’s going to pretend to be a narcissist, right?

But what he’s looking for—and looking for, it’s the wrong word to use because it’s like they’re not consciously aware of this. It’s just like this is the end result of your behavior, you know. If you’re driving drunk, the end result is death or prison; like that is what you are choosing, that is what you are desiring if you drive drunk all the time. And the codependent-cum-narcissist pretending to be the narcissist is seeking out a superior narcissist to abuse them.

You know what that—this just occurred to me, that’s exactly what we’re seeing. Jordan wants to get into a codependent relationship with a narcissist. And the one thing that really stood out to me about the WoolyBumblebee, and I think she removed the tweet after I commented on it, but she, she said: “Congratulations, Owen, for not allowing Aurini to manipulate you any more.”

MATT FORNEY: What the hell?

DAVIS AURINI: What? Here’s a pat on the head, you’re a good boy; you’re doing what I tell you now.

MATT FORNEY: Yeah, basically. Basically the point you’re getting at is we get mistaken for narcissists, but that’s because narcissism is confused with egocentrism. The two of us are egocentric.

DAVIS AURINI: Oh, incredibly.

MATT FORNEY: We have huge egos, we are loud and proud about our accomplishments, but there’s a big difference between egocentrism and narcissism. Egocentrism comes from having a big ego; narcissism comes from having no ego. It’s basically, narcissists have an inner void and they try to fill that void by constructing a narcissistic reality. And when you puncture that void, they usually, that’s where you end up with narcissistic reframing, narcissistic rage, et cetera.

Basically, they have it wrong. Like, you can see—and as you said, basically—

DAVIS AURINI: You know what? Narcissists will pretend, they usually pretend to be egoists or arrogant. It’s an easy frame to put on.

MATT FORNEY: Yeah. But, the difference is that there’s no “there” there, and if you puncture it everything just falls apart.

Like back in March, Owen is a narcissist, he had a narcissistic break, and when you reconciled with him he kept trying to reframe everything that happened as some sort of positive. I mean, it’s how narcissists reshuffle reality.

DAVIS AURINI: But you know what, he is definitely one of those codependents pretending to be a narcissist, because he has never exploded in narcissistic rage. He pouts, you know. He takes his toys and goes home. Now, it’s just as destructive in the—and so, and he acts like a narcissist, he’s pretending to be a narcissist, but he’s more codependent.

MATT FORNEY: Yes, yes. Well, you mentioned The Rawness, T aka Ricky Raw, I think he wrote in that same article, a very useful piece of wisdom: inside every narcissist there’s a bit of a codependent, and inside every codependent there’s a bit of a narcissist.

Because if you, a narcissist is dependent on the adulation of others in order to thrive, which basically makes them dependent on other human beings. Whereas a codependent wants to enslave themselves to the whims of a narcissist and fix them more or less, and you have to be narcissistic yourself to think that you can fix another human being, especially if they don’t want to be fixed.

DAVIS AURINI: That’s another elimination of the ego, you know; they don’t want to exist, they want to be part of the narcissist’s world.

MATT FORNEY: Yes. I believe Sam Vaknin actually calls—he calls codependents Inconverted Narcissists.


MATT FORNEY: Because rather than focusing inwards they focus their narcissism outwards onto another person, usually a narcissist.

And the thing is with these codependents, when they encounter someone who’s egocentric but not narcissistic, they end up rejecting the egocentric person for the reasons you said. Owen had a panic attack in part because you were praising him and telling him the good you saw in him, and that was what set him off.

DAVIS AURINI: And he wanted abuse.


DAVIS AURINI: He wanted abuse, he wanted a narcissist, not just an arrogant prick.

MATT FORNEY: He was expecting you to abuse him. When you didn’t, that was what set him off.

DAVIS AURINI: Because it’s—and it’s what, like the problem, if you expose a narcissist you force them to look at themselves. And if you care about a codependent, you see them; they don’t want—they both have—they are ashamed of themselves. And so the narcissist creates a false image, this false personality and demands that the entire world believe this false personality.

And Jordan’s pretending to do this, this whole, like, I’m a libertine, I’m a whatever. The codependent, like think of the BDSM relationship. You know, like the sadist wants to be beaten because it’s a catharsis for their self-hatred. I mean, hey, some girls just like getting spanked, okay. I’m not freaking telling you how to live your goddamn lives, folks, get over it; stop being butthurt just because you like a dildo in your ass, I’m not judging you for that.

But the extreme case, they want—it’s like I hate myself, but if you hate me and abuse me then it’s okay, I don’t have to think about my shame or improving myself or… et cetera.

MATT FORNEY: Basically, yeah, exactly. Now, I don’t really want to go back into Owen’s sexual issues because we did that in the livestream we did when he cracked up the first time; and I also discussed this in a podcast several months back.

DAVIS AURINI: And, you know, at the end of the day, sexual issues are just that. He’s pretending to be successful with women but he’s not. And that’s, like, he could be, but—

MATT FORNEY: I just wanted to, yeah, I wasn’t going to bring it up. I was going to point out that I went over this on my podcast “Is Jordan Owen the Next Elliot Rodger?” Again, I don’t make that comparison lightly, because I analyzed one of his videos attacking Roosh, and there are a lot of similarities between that, but I did want to bring up one thing.

I’ve noticed that Jordan uses a lot of scat imagery in his videos. Like, a lot. Like, to the point where I wonder if it’s some kind of—like, for example, in the video attacking Roosh, he spastically refers to women giving birth as farting out a baby. There are a lot of other examples that aren’t coming to mind right now, but it’s fairly—it’s obvious once you’ve started looking for it.

Do you think Jordan has, like, a scat fetish or something, because it seems like a really big topic that’s always on his mind?

DAVIS AURINI: Oh, God, Matt. I—I’m not going to—no, no—I picked up on the exact same thing, months ago. He actually explained, over dinner, he explained to Michael and I what the issue—I’m not going to go into it, but, it’s, I wish it was a scat fetish. I’d have more respect for that.

MATT FORNEY: Ha ha ha. I probably don’t want to know what the answer to that question is.

DAVIS AURINI: It’s related to his panic attacks, it’s… but, yeah, I mean he really gives himself away with the whole thing. And, I don’t know, I don’t know what you think of Freud, but in addition I diagnosed him as an anal expulsive, which isn’t something—you hear about anal retentives, right?


DAVIS AURINI: Anal retentives are people that hold everything in until they snap and they, ah. Anal expulsives are the opposite where they constantly need attention, where they refuse to learn how to hold their shit in. And they—

MATT FORNEY: And they just blow it all over the place constantly.

DAVIS AURINI: One of the things, one of the corrections I have to do to the movie is remove Owen’s constant verbal ejaculations while the interviewee is speaking. He just, he needs to be heard, he needs attention, constantly; can’t go two minutes without going, oh, uh, agh.

MATT FORNEY: This is particularly obvious when he’s interviewing a porn star or someone that he, like, worships. Like, for example, in the bit of The Sarkeesian Effect you’ve uploaded to your YouTube channel, he’s interviewing, I think it’s Christina Parreira, her name is. I don’t want to get it wrong, the porn star.

DAVIS AURINI: I believe so. I think that’s how you pronounce it. It’s Portuguese and I’m Italian, so we don’t like each other just based on ethnicity. But she’s brilliant.


DAVIS AURINI: She is a really good person.

MATT FORNEY: Yes, yes. And in that interview, Jordan is constantly, like, going, eh, uh, uh-uh, yeah, uh-uh, after every other sentence she says. And it’s a little, frankly, a little annoying because it’s like, can’t you just sit back and let her talk?

DAVIS AURINI: Like you are supposed to b—well, like we’re doing a podcast right now. In a real conversation you could take, you take cues from the other person when to speak, you can interrupt each other, but we don’t have those, it’s just audio, and there really is this skill that you have to learn to do it.

When you’re filming something like this, it’s like, hey, we’re going to get you to talk for an hour and then we’re going to use three minutes of that. You need to shut up, but at the same time still do body language. It’s—it can be removed, all right. Jordan has a much deeper voice than her, it’s going to be gone, but, yes, it’s actually one of the frustrations is—

MATT FORNEY: You can take it out but it would have been better for him to not put it in there to begin with.

DAVIS AURINI: Pretty much, even during my interviews.


DAVIS AURINI: He makes the noises.

MATT FORNEY: Oh, wow, Christ. But, anyway.


MATT FORNEY: I think we’ve covered the broad strokes here. Well, anyway, to get back to the main thrust, you’re still making The Sarkeesian Effect, it’s still going to come out. How can people support you in continuing to make the movie?

DAVIS AURINI: Well, at this point, like, Owen is just on a complete rampage right now. So, folks, if you want to support this and please help me get this thing done because it’s close, it’s really coming together. And all of this drama, no one’s going to give a damn about the drama. It’ll be, like, an interesting trivia fact in ten years, or, well, I guess, the movie has a shelf life. But the people that watch the movie are not going to care about the freaking drama.

So I’m just doing this through my PayPal. If you want to go to my website,, click the PayPal button, donate a few bucks, you could help me get this movie made. And, seriously, and everybody that has been donating, especially the people that, after Owen posts this huge nonsense, ten days of radio silence from me, thank you so much. You guys have been absolutely amazing.

And, you know, sometimes the people talking shit does get me down, but, you know, to hell with those people. None of the people that are whining and bitching ever do anything with their lives. None of these people ever actually donate money to the projects, you know. They don’t contribute, they don’t put their money where their mouth is.

You know, I think, the other day, Forney, we were talking about the MGTOWs and it’s like there’s the legitimate MGTOWs that are awesome, they’re great; and then there’s the culty ones. You know, they talk a good game, but they never show up when it counts. So, God bless all of you folks that actually give a hoot and read a book, as they say on The Simpsons.

MATT FORNEY: It’s give a hoot and don’t pollute, but, yeah, I get the meaning. About ready to wrap this up. Davis, do you have anything else you want to bring up before we close up this interview?

DAVIS AURINI: Well, you know what, hey, I appreciate everyone listening to me bitch, ha ha ha. I am really proud of where the movie is right now. I know it’s still rough. Listen, it’s issues out the wazoo, you can see that for yourselves. I know that. It’s not a polished diamond, and I really wish I didn’t have to release it yet.

I want to show you guys the final product. Everyone’s like, well, you know what, I’m going to trust these guys, they seem like, I like the cut of their jib; I’m going to trust these guys and hopefully they’ll give us something, and I was hoping to just wow your pants off. Can’t do that.

I had to show you the rough draft; they’re like, oh, wait, this is actually good. I wanted your pants to be down at the ankles. So, I apologize that I didn’t knock your pants off, but at least I unbuttoned your flies a little bit.

MATT FORNEY: Ha ha. Well, if it hadn’t been for Jordan shitting his pants, you know, you wouldn’t have had to do something like that. But, anyway.

DAVIS AURINI: You know what, one last thing. Never trust a man until you’ve had a beer with him, and never trust a man that can’t get laid. It really is that simple. If he can’t get laid, you can’t trust him.

MATT FORNEY: Truth and truth. I’ve been talking to Davis Aurini, you can check out his blog and support The Sarkeesian Effect,; you can follow him on Twitter,; and you can also check out his YouTube channel,

Davis, thank you once again for coming on the show.

DAVIS AURINI: Absolute pleasure. Oh, and because we have a mutual sponsor, Mr. Island Lion Herbals‘ good Kratom has been keeping me going during all of this.

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